Lissen/Ever Ready 5214

[Amie]

Hi all.

I'm looking for some information on the above model ER radio.

The set in question was built around 1940, and has the later octal valve line up.

I need to remake the aerial coils and check the VC, the coils have been remade before in ECW and I suspect the VC has been changed for a different type. The set works, but the band coverage is wrong, (nothing above 1370khz), and the tuning can't be tracked properly.

I have the trader for the model, but contains none of the relavent information....

Ideally I would need: wire spec and turns, or, inductance of the three windings, out of case.
Also the maximum value of the VC sections.

Any of the above info., would be much appreciated.

Thanks.
Amie.

[Mike Watterson]

If it's really octal then it's probably 1942 or later.
Which way does the knob move the pointer? Early versions use a friction drive (pointer contra-rotates) and later they changed to a cord and spindle the same as the Model A. The Model A seems very similar or identical to the late version 5214.
Also some pre-1942 models later had the valve bases changed in service shops as the edge P8 were unavailable by 1943 or 1944. The P8 and octal types in some cases are identical, just the base. The pin order is the same. There are later versions of the octal type that are usually shorter.
I have the 1939 Lissen version of the ER 5214 (only cosmetic differences) as well as real Model A. Both are working with my replica AD3 pack (loads of AA and D to give same run time as original, as Alkaline D is maybe better than Zinc F, and Alkaline AA is similar capacity to the B cells. All most all HT packs not using layer cells used "B" size cells as in the 4.5V flat torch battery still sold. Some 6V packs use D cells and some still use F cells.
At some stage during wartime production they changed the loop aerials from the 1939 version to the same as was used in the Model A.

VC = Variable Capacitor or what?

Do you mean the LW & MW loops and 3rd loop for an external aerial?

Do upload photos of the loop arrangement and the external aerial socket so I know which version it is.

I'll see about measuring mine in the next day or two.

Note that the holes in the rear panel cunningly allow tuning / alignment, which is affected by the battery pack. Make a replica with at least 4 x D cells and 60 x AA cells to get a similar effect.

The early version may have one aerial loop on the rear panel and later all the loops are in the main case. I'll have to check. I can certainly measure inductances and give an idea of the wire used on the 1939 and 1945-1946 model.

The factories were destroyed in the "Blitz" in 1941. After this there was practically only production of the Forces / Comfort 5214 model (most in plain colour according to service). It's not clear if some of the last mains models listed were ever produced. Some later Forces models had SW instead of LW, as UK LW was shut down during WWII. Production moved to a temporary site before finally moving to Block A in I think Wolverhampton, which was the main radio production and service centre till ER gave up radios. Though there were two later periods when they imported. I'm sceptical that the Model A was any more than a cost reduced case version of the last variation of the Forces/Comfort set.

[Ed_Dinning]

Hi Amie, let me know what wire sizes you need and I can probably send you some, even if Litz is required.
I can also mail you details of a mains powered eliminator if you need one (this is not an inverter type, so nice and quiet RF wise). It was a design I had published in WW in the 70's

Best wishes, Ed

[Amie]

Thanks Mike & Ed.

Pencil inscription found inside case by possible first owner, dates set to no later than September 1941, whoever owned the set kept a record of dates of, (I believe), battery replacement up to the early 1950's!

Tuning is by friction drive.

Definitely octals, bases are paxolin and riveted, if they were retrofit then they were done very neatly indeed.

MW aerial loop and external aerial coupling on case back separate. Looking at the back of the set, two wires join the frame on the back lower left, external aerial connection is through sixth cutout hole on the top right. Other coil inside back of main case.  Style of VC, (yes variable capacitor!) doesn't look same as pictures of contemporary sets. It is a Polar brand component....

Sorry can't do photo at present....

I think what has happened is that the VC has been replaced, and the minimum capacity is different to the original, the repairer has then messed with the loops and adjustments to compensate, or something. Ignoring the fact that the Local Oscillator is the main factor?

All that I can say for sure is that my tests have shown that the set has correct alignment of the IF (452khz) as per trader sheet.

I'm aware that the battery pack would have to be present in the radio for initial alignment when made.

The only work I've done is replace the grid coupling capacitor on the 1C5, the tone correction capacitor, 1C5 anode to LT- and the 8uF decoupling capacitor.

The set works on repro battery but frequency coverage and alignment complete pants! But where it works it does very well.

Ed....thanks for the offer....if I can get or work out details of the original loops then I would have a better idea of quantity and type of wire, I think the original was cotton served litz (?) I'll let you know

I have got some spare Mullard equivalent valves for replacements should they ever be needed, but the radios use will only be occasional, so I'd probably just use it as intended as a, (very heavy!) Portable.

Just as a reminder I can get myself unstuck with this if I know the inductance of the two main loops out of the case* and the maximum value of the tuning capacitor.

Amie.

[Mike Watterson]

It seems like quite ordinary wire, not litz. The aerial loop scheme does sound like the early 5214 family.
The friction drive was replaced by cord drive in production maybe 1944, I'm not sure. Production during 1942 to 1944 seems to have been a mix of P8 and octal in any position. Later production may have used imported RCA or Sylvania valves, sometimes labelled as Mullard. The family of valves was released originally by Sylvania. Philips/Mullard fitted P8 bases and Mazda fitted the Mazda Octal base. Sets using the Mazda base seem to have switched over to octal quite early in WWII. The Ever Ready branded valves are all Philips/Mullard, though a few 1930s Lissen/ER mains models used Mazda types.

So, yes the octal bases were retro fitted, likely between 1943 and 1947 as we think all production was P8 for 1939 to 1941 and maybe most of 1942.

Replacing the main VC seems unlikely. There are padding trimmers on the chassis I think. I'll go look.

You mean the minimum tuning cap value?

[Mike Watterson]

I can't tell what sort of wire the side coil is. I don't think it's litz, but just very fine grey cotton covered. It's 4.3 Ohms (approx) and 1.75mH, so LW, solenoid wound, not wave wound.

Rear panel: light tinned copper with two layers of cotton (black outer) giving about 1mm spacing. 20 turns and inductance of 0.22mH, resistance approximately 1.2 Ohms. So regular black pvc solid hookup wire maybe 22 swg would be fine. Obviously the MW loop.
The external aerial loop is ONE turn of similar weight enamelled wire underneath. The outer loop was loose enough at the top to be 100% sure.

The P8 valve bases are all held on with two screws/bolts.

I unsoldered both wires on MW loop and one on the LW loop to measure and also to get an idea of the RF tuning cap (which goes to top cap and MW loop). I didn't disconnect LO cap.
RF cap goes from maybe 78 pf, inc trimmer(s), to about 505 pf. Possibly MW, not sure which position is MW & LW as the battery is in the Model A. Another difference with the "A" and possibly late comfort sets is the 1939 model has on/off on the volume control, but the model "A" has a three position switch, easier to leave on, so I unplug the AD3 pack when not in use. The 1939 model I have is "louder" than the A, perhaps the A has more worn valves, I'll check with valves from another octal battery set. Or maybe try the curve tracer. Maybe I even have some 1.4V octals. Note they should be 1.3V to 1.35V on a mains adaptor and HT 75V to 85V, the listed 1.5V and 90V are nominal fresh battery voltages. Decent valves will work down to between 1V and 1.1V (the Mixer/Osc stops first) and about 60V to 65V HT, though with reduced volume.

The two trimmers on the chassis are LW padding at 250kHz approx. The two trimmers on the tuning cap are for MW about 200m (1500kHz), though some sets are better aligned at 225m (1300kHz approx). Adjust the LO coil at about 600 kHz. Repeat the trimmers. If it's night and R.Ulster can be received, it's 1341 kHz, which is fine to align the padders.
Then adjust the two LW trimmers on the chassis (RTE @ 252 KHz is good if you can get it).

Maybe you have a signal generator? It can be fed at a low level to the A E one turn loop.

Align with the back in place and something of an equivalent to the battery pack as it affects the HF end of the MW RF tuning!

The coil inductances and capacitors are about what I'd expect.

[Mike Watterson]

Photos of the coils and cap:
   
Tuning cap. RF is nearest the drum

   
LW coil at the side.

   
Main MW loop connections

   
connections for 1 turn external aerial & earth loop.

[Mike Watterson]

I see from the schematic why there was no change on the MW/LW switching on the trimmer. The LW coil and trimmer/padder is in series with the MW coil and thus disconnecting the wire going from RF tuning to top cap and MW coil meant the LW RF was all disconnected.

Original wiring:
   

A version of the circuit
   

[Crackle]

How spooky, Kalee20 is asking the exact same questions on UKVRRR.
Are these sets common then?
Mike

[Mike Watterson]

They aren't that rare if you include the ER, Lissen, Forces Model, the large wooden and Bakelite table models and the very similar post WWII "A" and "D". While the "G" is the same 1939 Bakelite case as the 1939 ER & Lissen and the "D" (the "A" chassis), it's got B7G valves and might be an update like B7G C/A and C/E of the Octal C, or it might be an early T series (later Sky Queen, Prince, King, Jester & Lord).

A lot of Forces/Comfort models produced and they may not have all been painted in Services colours.
Kalee20 is welcome to ask me about them.

I'd say the deluxe post WWII Table Models (the AM/FM and ones in a similar case, four altogether), the Ever Ready Deluxe, the Ever Ready & BEREC transistor record players, Sky Emperor / BEREC Commander, Sky Captain and ALL the ER & Lissen mains radiograms are a lot rarer.