Chinese Engineering!

[Yorkie]

I mentioned recently in another thread that a make of lathe and chucks much favoured in the UK and around the world is a New Zealand Brand 'Nova' made by 'Teknatool'. They built their name by manufacturing their products in their factory in New Zealand, but as they expanded, like so many firms these days, thought it would be a smart business move to have a factory in China, assuring their customers that the same high standards of engineering and quality control would be maintained. They became 'Teknatool International'.

I heard rumours in woodturning circles that the quality of Nova products had deteriorated but I dismissed these rumours as the bias which so often arises when 'China' and 'quality' are uttered in the same breath. Then one woodturning company ceased stocking Nova chucks and instead, had a chuck manufactured in Britain entitled the 'Patriot Chuck' which I thought was a particularly naff term especially over-used by flag-waving Americans. I just assumed that the Brit woodturing firm were trying to wrap their product in the Union Flag as a marketing gimmick. Then I noticed that Axminster Power tools brought out two chucks which they said were made in Britain to close tolerances and 'exacting standards'. Again, it sounded like 'British is best' hype.

However, last November I bought a set of Teknatool chuck jaws at the northern woodturing show. (Several sets of jaws are available for chucks according to the task in hand. You just fit the jaws needed for a paerticular job). The jaws in question are for small spindle work and also have an expanding dovetail to grip the base of for example, a small bowl, which a doevetail recess is turn in the base.

I haven't had cause to use the jaws, but whan 'tidying up' this afternoon, I had a look how well they fitted together. I was horrifed with the result, as illustrated on the attached pic. I don't recall the firm from whom I bought the jaws, and I've no intention of bothering to let Teknatool know, but I won't be using or recommending any of their products from now on. I've no doubt that if I e-mailed a pic, they'd send me a set of jaws free. No thanks - I'll buy some British ones instead. They're no more expensive anyway. The damage to the reputation and goodwill of companies when they 'take a slow boat to China' in their quest for profit is incalculable. Goodwill is money in the bank, and - as many politicians discover, trust is like viginity - when it's gone, it's gone -you can never get it back.

I know why they call Chinese boats 'junks' now!

'Record' used to be a famous British brand of lathes and tools made in Sheffield. Not any more - they too seem now to be an importing and marketing rather than manufacturing company. It's they who import Nova lathes and re-brand them as 'Record'. So that's another firms reputation which may end it tatters if my experience is anything to go by.

Maybe 'British is best' isn't just jingoism after all?

If you have an engineering background, and find duff engineering offensive to the eye, look away now! (The four jaws should of course be pefectly circular, and each jaw is numbered 1 - 4. The jaws are put together in the correct sequence)


David.

[tiv48]

that is horrific
rob t

[Aerodyne]

Some years back I ordered a bulk lot of electrolytic capacitors for China. Every one was faulty in one way or another, many were simply open circuit. Some even looked used and possibly recovered from boards. Too good (a deal) to be true? There's truth in that old adage. The'bargain' price turned out to be costly. I vowed then, never again.
That chuck set is appalling, completely unusable. I second the idea of buying British, if it can be certified that it truly is made in Britain.
-Tony

[Jamie-Skinner]

I could have made better at school...Infact I have.

[Retired]

Hi,

I have a selection of Record tools and a Record DML24" lathe all of which are excellent; the lathe is basic but well put together and a pleasure to use and I've owned it for the best part of twenty years. What a pity our manufacturing has now mostly gone abroad only to be replaced by factory buildings being turned into flats (sorry luxury apartments) and fast food being the only growth industry.

I still believe England has the best engineers in the world it's a pity England doesn't use them. We can make the best steel in the world and we were responsible for the industrial revolution on all counts I'm still proud to be English.

The parts shown in the picture are nothing short of disgraceful; they obviously were supplied from a number of different batches without inspection being applied to any.

The smaller part doesn't even appear to be concentric.

David I would be ashamed to put my name to such mediocre work and could produce much higher quality using my worn out Myford engineering lathe in fact I would welcome the challenge assuming I could obtain a steel blank.

Looking at the four jaws they appear each to be mounted by a single countersunk set screw presumably onto indexed slides so do they actually need to be numbered in sequence? A picture of the back of the jaws would be appreciated as I'm not familiar with the type of chuck.

The picture couldn't explain better why I prefer to buy scrap heavy duty cast iron English made machines and restore them; these machines were accurately made and made to last many generations. The only reason such machines get thrown out as scrap is because of many years of abuse by the operator.Thanks for sharing.

Kind regards, Col

[Paula A]

rentier based economy.. make nothing, just get fat on exploitation of others.. a service industry based economy only works when there is enough money circulating to keep the masses (the 70% at the bottom) fed and housed.. watch the next 12 months to see the results of uncontrolled greed and false house price economic growth.

[Yorkie]

The parts shown in the picture are nothing short of disgraceful; they obviously were supplied from a number of different batches without inspection being applied to any.

The smaller part doesn't even appear to be concentric.

Looking at the four jaws they appear each to be mounted by a single countersunk set screw presumably onto indexed slides so do they actually need to be numbered in sequence? A picture of the back of the jaws would be appreciated as I'm not familiar with the type of chuck.

Kind regards, Col

Thanks for reading my post Col (and others) and for your observations.

As to different batches, the thought that occured to me is that even so, separate batches should surely be made to much tighter tolerances to be considered 'within spec'. I think that the smaller segment would be concentric if mated up with similar sized jaws, but as it is, no, it isn't concentric.

As I said before, Nova was established in a NewZealand, and their products consdered to be innovative and of good quality, and although they say that they still manufacture in NZ (my two Nova chucks are stamped 'Made in NZ), I suspect that most production is now on their 100% Teknatool owned factory on an 8-acre site in China. Here's what they say about themselves:

'In order to meet the challenges of a very globalised, competitive, interconnected world market, Teknatool International has expanded and now has 3 manufacturing facilities worldwide:
• USA
• CHINA
• NEW ZEALAND

We take great pride in our philosophy of delivering best value to our NOVA owners and users. We aim to deliver the optimum mix of features, quality and price (internally here we call it the 'Teknatool Golden Triangle').

USA :
Manufacture and assembly of specialised products. Research and Design. Service & Support.

CHINA:
100% NZ owned by Teknatool International. Manufacture and assembly, Chinese based Research and Design Team, Product Sourcing.

NEW ZEALAND:
Head office.
Manufacture and assembly of specialised products, NZ based Research and Design Team, Global Sales and Marketing Teams, Global Administration Teams.

I've no idea where my duff chuck jaws were made - I just get the feeling that the answers is 'not in NZ'. Interestingly, Robert Sorby Ltd, a Sheffiled based manfacturers of woodturning tools and distributor of other makes via it's 'Turner's Retreat' retail arm has this to say about its relatively new 'Patriot' Chuck: 'The new Patriot lathe chuck is the latest new product from Robert Sorby. It comes after many years of experience in selling, marketing and distributing another chuck. These chucks are all made in Sheffield, England and come with unrivalled Robert Sorby after-sales service'

Note: 'After many years of selling 'another' chuck'. No surprises for guessing which one they're alluding to, or perhaps why they stopped selling it. As I said earlier, initially I thought that using the naff name 'Patriot' and emblazoning the chuck with the Union flag was just outdated nationalistic jingoism, particulalry because Made in Brtian came to be a byword for shoddy goods and late delivery back in the strike-bound 60s and 70s. However, I now realise that what it most likely means, is not so much simply 'Made in Britain, but more importantly 'not made in China'.

In a similar vein, Axminster's latest chucks are also British made, and they emphasise not simply 'British assembled', but that the chuck body, jaws, and boss are all UK made, inspected and assembled. (However, for one of their chucks even they say 'only the backplate is made in Britain' despite showing a Union Flag and the slogan 'Great, & British').

It does seem to me that there's an undercurrent that Chinese stuff simply isn't up to the standards of accuracy and quality control, despite no doubt using the latest CNC manufacturing facilites. I do wonder if one of the reasons for firms decamping to China isn't simply that labour costs are a bit lower, (surely offset by the costs of shipping bulky heavy goods?), but that the working practices, health and safety regime, and general red tape is less of an issue than in the UK, NZ or wherever.

I've attached some pics - one showing the front of the sets of jaws and the two Nova chucks that I own, another showing a side view. (There's a 'screw chuck' too, fitted into the lower chuck body, which is used instead of jaws for holding bowl blanks while the outside is turned. The screw is simply held in the jaws of the chuck body). The smaller jaws are fixed with just one screw per jaw. the larger sets with two screws. The jaws sit in a groove to locate them corrrectly. One of ther chucks is a MK2 which has a better chuck key - the other is a bit fiddly. Lathe headstock drives come in different thread sizes and you have to have aan insert to adapt the chuck to your particular lathe. However, as my lathe has a large M33 x 3.5 thread, instead of an insert the chucks have to be fitted with 'excerts' which can be seen at the rear of the chuck. This robs the distance between cenrtres for spindle work by about 50mm, but I don't do much spindle work so it's not an issue for me.

I've also attached a pic of the lathe bed of my Nova '16-24 44' lathe (so named as it has a capacity to turn up to 16" diam, and 24" between cenrtres, but the bed can be extended to 44 "). If you look carefully at the join between the two castings which make up the lathe bed, you'll notice that to get the ground slide to line up correctly, the two castings are slightly offset. Although it's no big deal, as with the jaws, there's a lack of accuracy. That said, I'm very pleased with the lathe, which is about £1000 retail, but which I bought new and boxed for £595 off e-bay a couple of years ago from a famous professional woodturner. It's very solid and the tailstock and headtock line up very well.

The lathe has several very useful features, such as the abiilty to swivel the head so that when turning a bowl with a long gouge, you dont have ot lean over the lathe or find that the tailstock gets in the way. Theres' an interesting litle vidoe about it here:

http://www.teknatool.com/products/Lathes...0_1624.htm

Hope that's of interest.

When I get a few mins, I might e-mail a pic of the jaws to Teknatool and ask if they're as dissapointed with them as I am, or whether they're content with this standard. What they must not lose sight of is that their customers are a bit more discerning than ham-fisted unenthusistic weekend DIYers.

David

[Yorkie]

We do indeed have good engineers, sadly they are not respected as in other countries. Look at The Skoda works in Plzen, it's a huge engineering company (it didn't get sold to VW) they make everything to do with heavy engineering and the quality is superb far better than what we can do, in fact the London Eye has a bearing assembly made by them. So where have we gone wrong?

Yes, The Czech republic retained its expertise and capacity for heavy engineering, and there were no firms in the UK capable of making the centre boss for the London Eye. As to Skoda, a week or so ago at a Model Engineering show I bought a few lathe tools for a small metalworking lathe I hope to have in use before the year is out. One such item was a new old stock Skoda live centre. It was boxed, and the box said 'Made in Czechoslovakia' so it must predate 1993, when Chechoslovakia ceased to exist and became two separate countries - the Czech Republic and Slovakia. I've attached a pic.

A remarkable turn of events that the bloodless so called 'Velvet Revolution' in 1989 saw an end to years of oppresion as part of the USSR, and that within just four years, an orderly separation of the two regions of what was then Czechoslovakia came about so smoothly. Would that England could gain independance from Scotland, Wales and NI so smoothly! It irritates me beyond measure that England (nor Wales and Scotland) is not a 'country' in its own right - just part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland' and that my passport says that my nationality is 'British'. I don't know any Scots or Welsh who refer to themselves as 'British' and nor do I - I'm English! Even the French know that 'je suis Anglais'! It's coming to a pretty pass that I'll feel more English in the South of France shortly, than I will checking in at the airport to get there.

Ho hum - rambing right off topic yet again!

David

[Retired]

Hi,

It would be interesting to see what happens in countries like Poland and India in the next 50 years. Will the tide turn as the wealth of such countries increase whilst ours falls; perhaps we will bring back much of the machinery and have to learn how to use it.

I agree there is a lot wrong with England but England still is a good place to live. The main problem is that there is little incentive to work in England;those who do work hard to achieve a decent income are ripped off with high taxes; buy a decent home and get ripped off by the council through the rating system.

Everyone of my school chums could read and write when I left school almost 50 years ago so what has happened since then. Before GCSE's came in we had the school leaving certificate to study for and although life at school in those days was harsh I left school with 7 passes including maths and English gaining distinctions in art and technical drawing being top of the class in both subjects. I wasn't the brightest kid but we had good schools and brilliant teachers apart from the woodwork teacher who was a bully and I disliked with a passion. My exam passes were not down to my effort but down to being forced to attend school and the sheer hard work of my teachers.

It is so easy to knock our own country and I can very well understand why it gets knocked but we still have have some top people here the only problem I see is how long we are going to keep these people.

After the great Windsor Castle fire in 1992 who would have thought that the castle could have been fully restored; where did all the top craftspeople suddenly appear from.

If I was a school leaver these days I wouldn't even consider going to university because of the massive fees. Students are expected to pay these fees to better themselves then get ripped off through taxes in their wages once they start work having received no help whatsoever. Much better to knock a few kids out and live on benefit as it saves a lot of hassle.

Bring back the old apprenticeships; force kids to go to school and teach subjects such as domestic science and wood/metal working. As human rights become increasingly stupid I would strip all human rights from kids in school making them adhere to school rules.

With a bit of effort England could still be turned around to become a world leader once again but will it happen before it becomes too late.

I didn't mind grafting for a living working in terrible jobs full of stress because by doing so and also with Bron's input we now have a decent lifestyle in a beautiful home. Would I do the same grafting now knowing the benefit system would look after us possibly paying even more than I could earn for doing no work at all?

Just a few thoughts to provoke replies; it will be interesting to hear what others think.

Kind regards, Col.

[Brianc]

It is interesting to compare the schooling nowadays to when the likes of Chris and I were at school. There was no question of whether or not we went to school - we went, and in my opinion, a school uniform made a difference to a pupils attitude to school. It imparted a sense of loyalty. Although classes were large, typically 40 - 45, discipline was pretty good as the kids learnt the basic rules of life at home. Not any more. I find the majority of the younger generation now are arrogant and have no respect for anyone or anything. This can only be because the basics of living in society are not taught at home in their formative years so really, it's not the kids fault, it's the previous 2 generations' fault as what starts as a "little naughtiness" ends up as a serious social problem. Added to this, the human rights thing puts a real mockers on things. Anything more than basic Human Rights should be earned, not taken for granted. We have a right to live and breath and to be free from bondage and free to follow whatever faith we chose. But beyond that, we must make some effort to gain our position in society. The welfare state is a brilliant idea but run by people who seem to have no sense of logic! Why, if you get a job, your benefit payments are reduced by normally, more than your net earnings! Surely, any sensible person realizes that the benefits must be cut but by less than net earnings so that one is better off by working!
A relative of mine's son had a child with his girlfriend. They split and the girlfriend couldn't look after the child (2yrs) so he was taken into care and fostered. The son's mother, when she heard about this, immediately said that she would look after the child. She receives benefits and tax credits and is not well off. Eventually, Social Services agreed that she could look after the child so that he didn't need to be fostered - great! HOWEVER, because she is family, she is not entitled to any supplementary payment although she is saving the taxpayer the cost of the foster home. She can't get the child benefit as the mother will continue to receive it for another 6 weeks although she has no statutory obligation to support the child - and so it goes on (so do I). She also had to make the child available for the mother to visit every day but could not leave the child alone with her or the child's father. This meant that she had to be at home every day at a given time to facilitate the mother's visit (human rights).
What I am saying is that the whole system in this wonderful country of ours has been c*cked up by a succession of governments who have no idea of what real life is all about. It is no wonder that we're loosing both the plot and the fantastic engineering base that we used to have. No education means no engineers and Chris is right about the continent. When I lived and worked in Germany, people were impressed when I said that I was an engineer - not like here where it is almost a dirty word. Without engineering, there can be no service industry as there will be nothing to service and no money to pay for that service - it's ironic that the expression "service industry" suggests that it mends things and keeps them going. In fact it does quite the opposite.
Rant over.