Double glazing units.

[Retired]

Hi,

Here I go again with another project. I'm now researching new glazing to suit our needs. Our detached bungalow was built around 1963 and retains the original softwood painted window frames and double glazed units; the units are now starting to fail. Over the last 27 years I've maintained the frames in excellent condition so wish to keep these only replacing the sealed double glazing units. Many of our neighbours replaced their window frames around 15 years ago converting to modern plastic. Four immediate neighbours have already had the sealed units fail and only a couple of days ago a neighbour asked where I intended to buy my new units because his 15 year old units are now needing replacement.

I'm totally biased regarding plastic versus wood frames preferring wood but had our neighbours enjoyed long lasting plastic frames and units then I might have been converted but not if new plastic fails in such a short period after all our units have been perfect for 50 years. I'm well aware double glazing brings forward strong opinions with many different suggestions but I hope this thread will prove one of discussion as to various options available these days; I'm doing my own research into the subject but thought the thread might be of interest? Bron and I have recently been shown some top quality plastic frames which close friends have had installed and we were most impressed by how they looked and the quality of workmanship involved but we can't get past why so many plastic units fail so quickly and I want to do this job once only; exterior painting I enjoy so its not a problem and it being a bungalow I'm sure I can manage to keep painting for a few more years to come?

There is absolutely no doubt that plastic frames score heavily over wooden frames when it comes to maintenance; every four years or so I spend six weeks re-painting the exterior of our bungalow but then we have plenty of timber to paint; I never skimp on time or materials and although it is hard work it has so far paid off. Plastic simply requires a wipe over with a damp cloth so in this respect plastic is a clear winner. Plastic frames to me look like plastic frames even when they are coloured to represent wood; they look "engineered" wood somehow looks softer and more friendly?

These original units are fully bedded in traditional putty with wooden exterior beads so putty having stood the test of time in this situation putty will be used once again. Once the old units are removed the rebates will be carefully cleaned then given a couple of undercoats of paint to seal the timber.

I leaded the windows many years ago using a diamond pattern but now want to do away with lead replacing with tinted glass for a number of reasons. Possibly grey tint will work well here and afford privacy. Bron and I like the rich look of tinted glass and if the correct choice is made it will reduce the fierce glare of the midday sun which hits the windows until sunset.

file:///C:/Users/Colin/Downloads/Pilkington_Energy_Advantage_Residential_Brochure%20(1).pdf

http://www.pilkington.com/en-gb/uk/house...vity-glass

http://www.pilkington.com/north-america/...efault.htm

http://cms.pilkington.com/projects/USA/D...px?id=3670

There is a vast amount of technical information available on the web and above are just an example. Pilkington glass will be chosen and this is where I need to do a bit of research because to complicate matters Pilkington glass comes in a number of variations and of course colours; we visited a local glass merchants a short while ago to obtain a rough estimate taking along the measurement of the largest single unit. 65" x 43" was the size and in Pilkington e tinted the quote was £88 which surprised me because I expected it to be much higher; money isn't a problem but it's still a welcome surprise to know I can change all the units to the front of our bungalow and have change out of £500? Last year I bought a top quality Fein Multimaster in readiness for this window project; the Fein will be used to release the old units. We also bought the new paint this being top quality traditional oil based exterior paint by "Little Greene"

http://www.littlegreene.com/?gclid=CMWHo...tAodjTcAbw

Traditional oil based paints are being outlawed as are most good things these days but the ingredients of Little Greene paint meet all new or old regulations at least so far hence we bought the paint in good time. A Purdy paint brush will be used.

As I say at the moment I'm only researching our options but will need to make decisions in the next few weeks before winter hits us again? Anyone had Pilkington E tinted units installed? The pictures of Butte College Campus in the link above show how dark the glass looks from the outside but how clear it is from the inside; it's rather like a two way mirror? The picture below shows the idea we have in mind.

Kind regards, Col.

   

[pwdrive]

I'd forget putty in a container Col, "putty" on a roll is the way to go, dead easy to apply, dead easy to trim, not expensive either.

Apply "putty" on a roll to the inside face of the glass, press glass into frame, presto, no glazing pins required, silicon between the edge of the glass and frame, apply "putty" on a roll to the outside of the glass, press home the glazing beads, pin beads.

I use the word "putty" but not quite sure what it's made of.

Lawrence.

[Refugee]

The problem is not the frames.
The sealed units are all the same glass but the spacer/seal varies.
It is not whom you buy them from but where the assembly shop gets the material from.
Larger panes fail more quickly too.

[pwdrive]

The problem is not the frames.
The sealed units are all the same glass but the spacer/seal varies.
It is not whom you buy them from but where the assembly shop gets the material from.
Larger panes fail more quickly too.

I was told that the main cause of failure is the bottom of the sealed units if they are sitting in water, the bottom spacers in the casements should have a channel or channels on their underside so that in the event of the frame seal leaking the water can flow to the drainage slots in the bottom of the casements, if the drainage slots are blocked and not sorted out the sealed units are doomed so my DG man told me.

Lawrence.

[Radio Fixer]

And they get damaged and knocked in delivery that lets the +ve pressure out. So best to order a few at a time and collect.

Yep! mine are spaced off in all the conservatory units, everyone replaced by me, over 20 years, after Mr Wickes let his 'yobs' knock them about. None of the new ones have leaked.

Edit: If you get one that mists up in the cold weather but clears in the hot then don't leave it which I did. It was in an inconspicuous place so it went on for several years like that. I didn't realise that it was dribbling tiny quantities of moisture into the woodwork below it. And Luan rots almost as easy as softwood.

Gary

[Retired]

Hi,

Many thanks for the information Lawrence. I agree tubbed putty is a right pain to use and rolled is much more convenient. I've always used tubbed putty previously because it is so widely available and cheap. Tubbed putty varies a great deal depending on make and age; the wet greasy type is a downright pain to work up sticking to everything making it uncomfortable to handle.

I don't know where I got the idea from but I always thought common glazing putty to be flour and linseed oil?

We all know this putty has been around for millions of years but the following hasn't;

http://www.crowndecoratorcentre.co.uk/Pr...102012.pdf

I'm sure these days just getting out of bed imposes some serious risk to our health?

A quick browse on the web revealed the following;

Putty[edit]
Traditional glazing putty, consisting of a paste of chalk powder and linseed oil, is a sealant for glass windows that hardens within a few weeks of application and can then be painted over. The utility of putty is owed to the drying properties of linseed oil.

Using tubbed putty I always applied this to the frame rebate in the form of a wedge then the glass bedded both on the face and edges just leaving the second face to bed before trimming off.

On the larger sized units I've always struggled handling them working on my own especially seating them on the bottom rebate so for this job I'm planning to buy a pair of "sucker" grips which are cheap enough and will clear my hands from the unit edges.

Regarding why the sealed units fail Refugee and Lawrence obviously moisture has gained access and I can understand the theory in letting any water out which could cause a problem but on our 50 year old units they are fully bedded on putty without recourse to adding run off channels etc. As long as the putty is applied without voids then it should afford an additional seal as with our units. The units must really suffer punishment during their lifetime with constant changes of temperature and humidity attacking the seals both from without and within.

Do you remember the lovely looking Luan doors that were supplied in great quantities about 30 years ago many with intricately carved panels Gary? These quickly disappeared but I wonder how many would have survived if they had been installed and protected correctly; the top and bottom edges of doors tend to be ignored but it is these two edges especially the bottom edge which laps up lots of moisture leading to early rotting; I ensure all our exterior doors are fully sealed with undercoat and gloss paint so have never had a problem. One thing about timber frames is that any rot can be cut out and new timber spliced in.

One interesting point I forgot to mention is that two of our neighbours have suffered problems with their plastic framed window hardware; the hinge units have failed and our immediate neighbour hasn't been able to open her windows for many years because they will not remain open; our wooden frames have very basic heavy duty old fashioned hinges and casement stays that do their job year in year out.

I'm certainly not an expert on double glazing hence I intend to stick with what I know to have worked here for the last 50 years but improvements in glass technology I do need to seriously look into because of energy saving; aesthetics and of course current regulations.

Kind regards, Col.

[pwdrive]

The modern hinges/stays on UPVC windows are SS, all our windows are fitted with triclkle vents which we leave open, we rarely find the need to open the casements. The casements have triple locking points.

I fixed 68 DG units in the old wooden windows and doors using putty on a roll, if I used the old fashioned stuff I would still be at it..

Some of the problems with window/door failure/hinge failure is that a lot of folks persist in trying to open them when the frames are jamming for whatever reason.

I remember those old hardwood doors that flooded the market, a lot of them were crap from day one, I think some must have been assembled with flour glue.

Lawrence

[Refugee]

The DG units I had that failed were south facing units in a second floor flat and it was two 4 foot by 5 foot pains.
They failed both at the same time in the spring of 1988.
During the great hurricane in October 1987 they could be seen flexing by up to 1/2 of an inch.
They were aluminum framed units in hard wood frames with resin insulation between the two aluminum sub-frames and all the smaller sheets survived.
That was a sleepless night listening to the hurricane wrecking all sorts of things.
The roof repair bill was not too awful.

[Retired]

Hi,

I've now had a bit of time to do more researching into choosing the glass for our new glazing units. I've been in touch via email with Pilkington Glass who kindly sent me links to a couple of their websites and they also informed me that I could discuss my glass needs with them if I cared to visit a show in Telford which they would be attending?

I've looked at websites and watched YouTube videos and the more information I gained the more puzzling it all became. I had more of less settled on buying self cleaning heavily grey tinted units; self cleaning for less work and the heavy tint for energy saving and privacy.

However I then came across some rather disturbing information regarding using energy saving glass and one link to a YouTube video is here;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFZHbWI4ubU

I hadn't realized it could be dangerous if the wrong type of glass is installed; it's great for furniture etc if UV is severely restricted but not so for people?

For active people who get out often possibly the glass will not affect them much but for people who because of health problems are housebound then it could become much more serious; because of our climate I tend to stay indoors many months of the year avoiding the dire weather.

I don't have all the answers and will do more research but at the moment I'm now back to choosing simple plain glass to be on the safe side? It's so easy to take things for granted so I find a little research is time well spent before jumping in.

Time to absorb some UV in the garden because it's a lovely morning here and to get some exercise fighting our laurels which are advancing once again like triffids.

Kind regards, Col.

[pwdrive]

Watched the video, didn't say a lot only that the author got "sick" looked more like a book promotion to me, Cornwall has some of the highest UV exposure in the country, also one of the highest skin cancer rates.

Lawrence.