Plastic (UPVC) Windows

[Radio Fixer]

In Colin's (Retired) epic post on the Bandsaw restoration he mentioned, in a deviation, David (Yorkie) getting new windows. He said they were German of very high quality and coming from him that's quite a compliment. Of course they are probably an affiliate of that upmarket car maker Audi and that explains it

But is it true that they come all that way as built items? I think not but the extrusions could well do. I was told that only a few companies make all the extrusions and all these hundreds of places that want you to buy their windows only cut and put them together. The one I have used for replacement units, for the conservatory, doesn't do its own glass either. That's bought in from somewhere with the major investment in equipment that's needed.

So, as I know a number of you have been down the new windows route are there differences in construction? In the early days they used to make a slimmer frame by including metal struts but now days I believe it is a composite material. Cant be carbon fibre, too expensive, glass fibre? maybe, another opposing plastic rod?

So has anyone looked into that?

And then colour and wrap. Only had a minor look but most wood grain finishes are a 'wrap' over white extrusion: is that good enough? what are the chances of peeling? I have seen one frame where the colour went all the way through the moulding ...

I was told long ago that colour (wrap) adds 25% to the cost over white: any views.

Are the big boys: Everest etc any better than the smaller companies? The guarantees may be better, Everest seem particularly good for this.

Merry Christmas

The sun is shinning so a walk along the prom is called for.

All the best and thanks for any window experiences. I do have some local recommendations already.

Gary

[pwdrive]

Gary, as you probably know there's manufacture, supply/fit or bought in, supply/fit most upvc window suppliers are the latter ie: they come out and measure, pass that on to a manufacturer then await delivery.
We had coloured wrap around film windows/doors etc fitted earlier this year all on base white profiles (Rehau) in our case the colour is on the outside only, the inside is base white to match our interior decor.
I have seen some film types (not ours) delaminate but the ones I saw were I guess first generation early production stuff or really cheap nasty crap.

Some of our windows and french windows on the front of the house are enclosed by our conservatory, come last summertime the upvc frames got very very hot, there was no sign of peeling/bubbling or whatever.
For doors I would not recommend a upvc projecting sill, I would recommend a brick, concrete, stone or slate sill.
The flush sill as supplied with the frame will normally be aluminium, normally self colour or anodized.

I fitted 25mm slate sills under and projecting in front of the door and french window frames, many builders merchants stock slate sills as do some roofing wholesalers, a common size is 200 mm x .9m, 1.2m, 1.5m etc. slate sills are not expensive unless you want the pukka Welsh, Westmoreland etc.

If you are getting them fitted by a contractor then periodically oversee what they are doing, ie: show them you mean business.

If DIY then all I can say is do a good job, apart from the mechanical fixing think water water water every time coming i from all directions.

Timber/UPVC, most folks including me prefer the look of timber but it's the maintainance aspect, painting them regularly is fine but if the seal between the frame and any masonry is not absolutely water tight at all times under all weather conditions then eventually unseen rot is most likely to ensue unless you paint the unseen parts to full spec first prior to installing.

Lawrence.

[Radio Fixer]

Thanks Lawrence.

Did you look into construction: how they are stiffened etc?

Maybe if I bring this to the top again David will let me know his experiences. I see he is back on the Forum no doubt after a family break.

Gary

[pwdrive]

Thanks Lawrence.

Did you look into construction: how they are stiffened etc?

Maybe if I bring this to the top again David will let me know his experiences. I see he is back on the Forum no doubt after a family break.

Gary

No I didn't Gary, but when I drilled the fixing holes through the frames there was certainly metal inside although I didn't bother to examine the swarf to see what kind of metal it was.

The window sills were only reinforced by their own internal UPVC webs.

If DIY fixing then make sure that packers are fitted between the frame and the wall at the fixing points otherwise the frame will still bend if the fixings are over tightened even though the frame is reinforced.

Lawrence. [EDIT: Correction, the sills were metal reinforced but only in the section that is directly under the window frame, the part of the sill that projects in front of the window is as described previously] Here's a link to some Rehau guff, scroll down and you will see some section drawings showing the various reinforcing arrangements:

http://www.rehau.com/linkableblob/GB_en/...s-data.pdf

[Retired]

Hi,

Whilst out in the car one day; Bron and I noticed a rather nice stone cottage which at first looked wonderful in its new hardwood window frames until we saw one of the frames was peeling? These were in fact plastic frames with a surface finish resembling hardwood and when newly installed I bet they looked a picture. Imagine paying extra to have the surface peel away like this?

I don't want David to feel obligated in replying concerning his new top quality plastic windows but Bron and I were most impressed by what we saw; looking around David's street there were plenty of plastic window frames to be seen but David's were much better in appearance because the glazing units were symmetrical; the non opening units having infill frames to give a balanced look. other of David's neighbours have also copied and the installer has been extremely busy in that one street.

John who bought my compressor last night was telling me stories of his neighbours who have had plastic windows fitted; John lives in Steeton so is also subjected to our lovely Yorkshire weather. On a windy day john said he could actually see the double glazed units flexing resulting in early failure of the double glazing seals; one of his neighbours has had the same window replaced twice in one year.

How many plastic frames with double glazed units are going to last fifty years? Our bungalow was built around 1963 and retains both the softwood frames and double glazed units; the front bedroom unit started to fail about five years ago and now is very poor indeed being mostly misted up but the front room window of 12' in length being three sections has only just started to fail; some days the misting completely disappears but obviously this is a sign to replace them?

I'm very much undecided as to what I'll eventually settle on regarding replacements. I'm not doing anything until at least it warms up outside then I'll closely inspect the softwood frames which appear to be in excellent original condition but as Lawrence rightly states who knows what frames look like on the inside until exposed?

Granted as I grow older home maintenance needs reducing as much as possible but I don't want to make a mistake by having plastic windows installed only to replace them within a few years? I could even make new frames out of suitable durable hardwood or Western Red Cedar which is extremely durable even though it is a softwood;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuja_plicata

I've got plenty of options to choose from but until I establish the condition of our original frames I'll keep an open mind. Bron and I prefer timber frames but having seen David's plastic frames close up we could be swayed to go plastic. Decisions; decisions?

In spite of the bad weather I carried the new small SIP compressor into the garage and did a bit of tidying up; when the new big compressor arrives I'll have three compressors once again to choose from. The smallest is a dedicated air brush compressor; the medium is the SIP bought brand new with nail gun and the new one bought but not yet received is a 3hp model. Another 20 degree rise on temperature outside will cheer me up.

Kind regards, Col.

[pwdrive]

Western Red Cedar is durable from a weather point of view Col but it's a weak timber.

Lawrence

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks Lawrence for the information. Yes I'm aware Western Red Cedar isn't the strongest of timbers but if I made my own frames I could adjust the sizes accordingly.

Bron and I have just been discussing our windows and our first thought is to simply replace the double glazed units if the frames are in good order. Our second choice is heading towards me turning this into another saga and making our own frames; it will be a big job for me working on my own but certainly not as big a job as replacing the entire roof which we did when we first moved in. As Gary has already said I would enjoy doing the woodwork especially now that we can afford best timber of our choice which might end up being oak then it would look lovely on the inside with a few nice mouldings? It all depends on the condition of the original frames and given the weather for the next four months or so I'm unlikely to start pulling lumps of timber from the bungalow front.

There is nothing to prevent me researching though and planning ahead regarding making new frames? It's not just the window frames but most of the front of the bungalow because there is also a lot of cladding. Thinking about it I could get very interested in taking this job on.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4AoIv91pSg

Above is a video showing very old machinery in action. My machinery is much newer; note the total loss dust extraction system; the H&S guys would despair? My main woodworking machine is a Startrite combination five function machine capable of serious work. It has the slot morticer attachment for quickly cutting mortises and a scary moulding function using dangerous old style Whitehill moulding blocks which are apt to throw a knife if not carefully set up. My compound mitre saw will cut 3" x 12" section so is an overkill for window frame material although my smaller very accurate mitre saw will also do the job. I have a brand new 3hp heavy duty router. The planer/thicknesser at 10" x 6" will reduce all framing materials to a common size which is essential. One thing I would need to do is to have the HSS planer blades re-sharpened because they haven't been touched for twelve years? With all my kit I can make just about anything and the machines take a lot of the backache out of the heavy machining. It's amazing though the remarks we receive when visitors see the furniture I've made and comment that its alright for me because I have the machines. Sure; all I do is fell a tree in the rear garden and throw this into the machines now where is the skill in that? It's always easy for the other guy?

Kind regards, Col.

[Retired]

Hi,

Something I never ever do is to replace rotten timber with filler whether the filler is car filler or proper wood filler. When I get a bit of time I like to browse YouTube for ideas and inspiration. I've been doing this recently in regards to installing new double glazing next year so I'm gathering lots of information regarding both plastic and wooden window frames. Here is a video which truly make my toes curl? I wonder how many have viewed the following video then followed the instructions thinking this is a repair? To me it is nothing more than a bodge; car filler sets rock hard and has different rates of expansion and contraction to timber so how long would such a "repair" last and I also add proper wood filler to this. The correct method is to splice in new timber which sounds difficult but with a little practice once completed and finished no one would know the repair had been carried out but above all such a repair would restore integrity and strength whilst being a permanent repair; by all means make good with a bit of filler if needed. Looking at the amount of filler being added into the damaged area I would guess decent timber would cost less than the filler; doing the job properly will take a bit more time initially but will give a permanent repair? The guy in the video might benefit from a cement mixer to mix the filler if he comes across a big repair?

I have lots yet to learn regarding all aspects of woodworking and I hope I'm not preaching but in my humble opinion what is shown in the video regarding using filler is only of benefit to the filler manufacturer?

Kind regards, Col.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwhmg36Xv1k

[singlepentode69]

I have never favoured filling rotten wood with filler .better practice to let in a new peice of wood.When i was younger i saw a the local council saw a window sill off a brand new window to replace a rotten one on our neigbours property sheer madness.a brilliant vodio on window making very reminiscent of the late fred dibnah workshop.
regards
Robin