Is this a new twist on expiring after warranty is out?

[camallison]

Shocked the Honda Jazz let you down Colin. A friends has been fine and is now a few years old. I think that Jazz is made in the UK and having had several Honda's I would say that the ones made in Japan were better. I'm watching out for the new Honda Jazz, made in Japan and out in 2014 although press pics have been on the Web.

You are right David, I may have had just as good an experience with a cheaper or different brand to Bosch but for me if a makes been good then I stick with it. We are fortunate that we don't have to go for the cheapest ...

Just looked Electrolux up and it says they are Swedish ! Well AEG is certainly German. Tried to find a similar spec. Electrolux oven to the AEG SWMBO has chosen and its about 200 pounds more expensive ... Well that's Sweden for you.



Most items chosen and will soon be on order. So lets got on with something far better ... have a beautiful and interesting chassis on the bench

Weary of appliances and specs. , prices, availability !

Gary

Gary,

I had expected the Honda Jazz to be "of merchantable quality" too. It was built in Swindon as was the engine and gearbox and rolled off the line on 9th July 2013 and stored in a compound until called off for delivery in September. The automatic model (which this was) doesn't seem to be in high demand and so it was available for immediate delivery to the dealer within the week. When it ran, it was a first-class auto box (because of disability, I cannot drive a manual) and the CVT transmission works out more economical than the manual box. It was smooth and a dream to drive, but the total list of quite significant faults grew in the two weeks I owned it. No other automatic was immediately available to replace it while it was to be sorted, and so they took it back.

Colin

[ppppenguin]

My GF has just bought a Honda Jazz, secondhand. 09 plate, about 29K on the clock. She liked it when she test drove and it's a very nice car in many respects but the automatic box is a disgrace. It's an automated manual box and the changes are slow and unpredictable. OK, it should give better fuel economy than the older conventional auto that used to be on the Jazz (I test drove one some years ago and it was lovely) but it's not well conceived. I'm used to the DSG box on my Golf which gets it right just about all the time and again should give better than manual economy as there's no torque converter.

[Joe]

This thread gets ever more interesting.

I can't drive but had always believed that automatic transmissions had never become the norm because they were uneconomical, unlike in America where the petrol's cheap enough for it not to matter.

You live and learn indeed.

- Joe

[Keithstv]

My brothers new car has an 8 speed auto box and its 3 litre diesel can get over 40mpg. May even be better than my 2 litre diesel 6 speed manual box. But I live in Yorkshire where we have things called hills, real hills not the molehills they have in the Midlands.

Keith

[Radio Fixer]

Had 5 Honda's, not a Jazz though, and all have been autos (none CVT though). The change has been silky smooth so maybe something is not right about your one Jeffery?

It was said about perceived quality of cars that top of the range extra cost was all marketing hype. Bottom of the group was just as good as the top of the group (it even uses some of its parts, which is a backhanded compliment). Of course unless it uses all its parts that doesn't mean anything.

But how is that known that its all in the marketing, came across as a 'fact' but it might not be. If I owned the group I would allow more time for build (slow the belt) and more inspection. In fact I would want two inspections: no way would I want bad press on the top product.

And another thing that wasn't said, that certainly is true, a top of range, lets use Audi, will be worth more when you trade it in then a Skoda. What you save on the buying you lose on the selling. In fact many buyers, and me included when I was doing high mileage and changed the car every 3 or 4 years, are only interested in "... whats the difference, how much do I need to find".

Current Japanese built Honda is 10 years old, had nothing more than servicing and cam belt: same battery and exhaust. Goes superb, in fact it may be only just run in. Looks perfect as well ... Happy

Gary

[camallison]

My GF has just bought a Honda Jazz, secondhand. 09 plate, about 29K on the clock. She liked it when she test drove and it's a very nice car in many respects but the automatic box is a disgrace. It's an automated manual box and the changes are slow and unpredictable. OK, it should give better fuel economy than the older conventional auto that used to be on the Jazz (I test drove one some years ago and it was lovely) but it's not well conceived. I'm used to the DSG box on my Golf which gets it right just about all the time and again should give better than manual economy as there's no torque converter.

This gearbox was the next new thing to come out of Honda - CVT which, for those who can remember them, is akin to the old Daf Variomatic. In this case, the gearbox control unit and the ECU operate in concert to give the most economical "gear" that the steel belt should sit in, on the opposing cones. It was very smooth and never actually changed gear because there aren't any gears. It certainly wasn't high revving like the old Dafs tended to be.

Just had another laugh. When all this happened with the Jazz, I looked online at various reviews and specifications and the Skoda Roomster came out top of my list. I also noticed that the Skoda dealer in Middlesbrough had a recent reg used one for sale and phoned to request a test drive. His response was that they had lost the keys, but he would call me when they found them. Taking note of their (in)competence, I test drove an automatic Roomster at the Skoda dealer in Darlington (same distance to travel for us). Liking it after a long test drive, I ordered a new one for immediate delivery from their compound.

Today, the Skoda dealer in Middlesbrough phoned to say they had found the keys and was a little upset to hear we had bought a new one weeks before.

Colin

[Yorkie]

It was said about perceived quality of cars that top of the range extra cost was all marketing hype. Bottom of the group was just as good as the top of the group (it even uses some of its parts, which is a backhanded compliment). Of course unless it uses all its parts that doesn't mean anything.

And another thing that wasn't said, that certainly is true, a top of range, lets use Audi, will be worth more when you trade it in then a Skoda. What you save on the buying you lose on the selling. Gary

Not sure who said 'cars at the top of the range was ALL marketing hype' - certainly not me. I said (and 20 % is a conservative average estimate):

Quote:

"At least 20% of the price of a BMW, Mercedes or Range Rover is in the 'brand value'. They charge what the market can stand, and for premium brands, people are prepared to pay a premium price. That's why Toyota invented the Lexus brand and now Vauxhall have invented Infiniti. Those brands can charge far more for their cars that people who buy them would have been prepared to pay for a Toyota or a Vauxhall, yet such brands offer little in the way of features and benefits which differentiate the car rather than differentiating the brand".

Unquote.

That is a fact. Had Toyota and Vauxhall not created such brands they would not have been able to charge anything like the same price for those self-same cars which now carry the brand name Lexus and Infiniti had they just slapped Vauxhall and Toyota badges on them. Vauxhall and Toyota brands are perceived to be volume car makers, not in the luxury car market, any more than is Ford or Fiat.

Neither am I sure who said (allegedly) that 'a car at the top of the list was just as good as the one at the top of the list'. Firstly, it depends on how you define 'goodness'. For example, I prefer dark fabric upholstery which is much cheaper than hide, which I detest, and I prefer dark matt plastic unfussy dashboards - my least favourite being walnut and other embellishments, which I think look naff. I had a powerful incentive to buy Fiats or Alfa Romeos as we get 25% discount through the Fiat family discount scheme. We looked long and hard at the range and nothing appealed, and as we've gone down to one car, it had to be something my wife would feel happy to drive, as indeed she is. She doesn't know one brand from another.

What I'm interested in is that the features and benefits of a car meet my needs. My new car ticks all the boxes - air con, cruise control, rear reversing radar with a visual dashboard display, heated and electrically adjustable wing mirrors, clear instrument panel, height adjustable seats, split rear seats, fits in the garage, and of course it has all the things that come as standard on most cars these days from the bottom to the top, including a 3-yr warranty. (62MPG to date, free road tax in the first year, £20 a year thereafter - what's not to like?).

I got a good trade-in price and the dealer paid the VAT. I was happy with the deal, and although I could have afforded to have bought an Audi, none of them appeal to me and I think they're overpriced, but I don't object to my car having all sorts of bits in it which are common with Audi. (EG: why would it make sense for VAG to have three lots of windscreen wiper or door winder motors when it can gain from economies of scale with standardisation across the range of brands?)

As to 'residual values', depreciation of some of the premium brands falls off a cliff - not in percentage terms but in actual money terms. Of course an Audi will be worth more than my Skoda Bravia after three years - I should hope so, considering how much more the Audi will have cost. The Porsche 911 has the strongest three-year resale value of any car currently on sale – at 64% for a GT3. But the car has a list price of more than £86,000, so although it will still be worth just over £55,000 after three years, it loses £30,539 over that period for a car you have to be shoehorned into - that loss is the OTR price of two Skoda Bravias.

Our elder son has recently changed his Porsche 911 for an Aston Martin DB9. He typifies people who can afford to buy and run 12 cylinder 6 Litre cars that cost £1,200 a year to tax - he doesn't give a rats about residual values or practicalities. It's about four foot longer than my Fabia yet has less room inside it, but then it's his car not mine, so what the heck. (In the three years he had his 911, I think it averaged 18 MPH in London, which I think is a hell hole in which to own a car of any type).

Weakest resale percentage is the Citroen's C6 executive, at the bottom of the class and can't even hold on to a fifth of its original retail price after three years on the road. Even though it costs less than half the price of the Porsche at £37,895, it sheds £30,420 in three years. That depreciation leaves you with a car worth just £7475.

Not arguing - just rambling. (Nothing new there then).

[pwdrive]

I paid 750 quid for my Landrover, I could get £1,500 plus for it if I gave it a wash and a shine.

Lawrence.

[pwdrive]

""At least 20% of the price of a BMW, Mercedes or Range Rover""

Wot's the difference between a Range Rover and a Hedgehog....

Lawrence.

[Radio Fixer]

Well to me a lot of what you say comes across as Fact David and where do you get them from? Where does the 20% mark up figure come from just for "the brand value" value ? You make statements like "That is a fact" not "I believe" or "I think" or "maybe" or perhaps"

And just to nit pick you were wrong about Electrolux being a lower end AEG ... it isn't as far as the Web shows. Completely different manufacturer and country and higher end, well as far as money goes.

Same with the Toyota and the Lexus, Toyota didn't just put a badge on the car because its a completely different vehicle. They wanted to take on the mighty Mercedes limos, expensive but if you can afford it... Very well made and nice to drive cars in my short experience. So for the Lexus they built a completely different plant with the highest build standards that the engineers could come up with. Nothing to do with simply badge engineering and down another line in the same plant. Oh! and I very much doubt that the Toyotas use some of the Lexus parts.

Anyway you are happy with you car, and its low mark up for "brand value" gives you a warm glow.

So lets call it a truce, I'm weary and trying to buy the best kitchen appliances I can, brand mark up or not.

Gary