Union Jubilee Clutch.

[pwdrive]

Nick...the point I was making was that if it is a clone design then maybe the software has been cloned as well as the hardware.
I'm not saying it is cloned but if it was then the ID of the chip set might reveal the name of a more techinically accessable manufacture of VFD's and there might be a more comprehensive idea of programing the parameters in forums etc pertaining to the possible said manufacturer, it's a straw to grasp at only, clearly there is a problem in getting the unit to work correctly by using the external speed control pot as several forums have reported, there is also utube evidence to suggest the same.
As to Cols problem I reckon an electrical/electronic fix is in order until he knows for sure that a parameter fix is available/possible.

Lawrence.

[Nick]

Nick...the point I was making was that if it is a clone design then maybe the software has been cloned as well as the hardware.

I suspect its not a clone for a couple of reasons - mainly that the manufacturer, Huanyang, is well known and long established, but also because the binary code in the microprocessor is generally "Locked" so cannot be read once its been programmed in - this is generally the case for all commercial products with embedded processors - all modern (last 15 years or so) microprocessors have "read code disable" bits in their configurations which, once set, disable read-back from the chip of the binary program code inside, If the flag is reset to re-enable reading, a side-effect is that the program memory of the microprocessor is zeroed. i.e. from an external viewpoint, programming a uP with this bit set makes the uP "write only" where the program memory can only be read as instructions by the processor itself as its running.

This protects the intellectual property (IP) of the designer...

NOTE: Given sufficient resources (and funds) any chip "read-back" protection can be overcome - this will give you the machine code that you then need to disassemble (using a tool like IDA) back to assembler, turn the assembler into pseudo-code and then re-write in C (or whatever high(er)-level language you're using). i.e. its a lot of effort and rarely worth it - in this case, I suspect it'd be easier (and safer) just to do your own thing from scratch...

[pwdrive]

According to one forum the chip is a mitsubishi design one.
Out of interest I looked at one of the Mitsi VFD manuals and some of the stuff for the external speed control looked very similar ie: the supply voltage to the pot 5/10v etc and the input current when set to current mode 4 to 20 ma etc, on this particular one they used the 5v and the pot was 1k, all programable from min to max on the pot, the chip refered as the one in the Huanyang is the type M30260F8AGP apparently the design was hived off to another manufacturer who's name I've forgotten.
You would think that if Huangyang were a well established firm that they would have a proper dealership network with technical back up, maybe they do but I can't find any ref to that yet.
Software can be cloned, it's called theft.

Lawrence

[Nick]

The M30260F8AGP microprocessor is a standard 16-bit uP from Renesas - (Renesas is a joint venture between Hitachi & Mitsubushi). This chip itself is not relevant - its a general purpose uP widely used in many different applications (just like Freescale, MicroChip, Atmel, etc. general purpose uPs).

Its almost certainly (even just by implication) completely unwarranted to accuse Huanyang of theft - they are a substantial and well established business who offer a bespoke design service - something they'd be unlikely to do if they were ripping someone else's designs off. http://www.hy-electrical.com/index.asp (use Google to translate the page)

The problem with many posts on forums is that they really don't understand what they are saying - the CNC forums where a lot of threads about these VFDs appear are a classic case in point - there are a LOT of people there, who, with the greatest respect to their possible other skills, know very little about microelectronics or even electronics at all - they are machinists.

The 0-10V or 4-20mA remote control interfaces are industry standards for VFDs - their presence is most definitely not an indicator of hardware or software theft/cloning, however their absence would indicate a manufacturer out of touch with their market

EDIT: Interestingly, some other VFD manuals that I've looked at, e.g. http://www.cerusind.com/catalog/document...Series.pdf, all show the remote control potentiometer connected via screened cable, with the screen connected to the ACM terminal, not mains ground. So there you go!

[Retired]

Hi,

WOW what a lot of welcome information to digest; my poor brain.

Before going out this morning I logged on and read the most recent posts which I found both very informative and interesting especially your's Refugee with the circuit diagram.

As I was reading I thought all this is getting out of hand and becoming increasingly complicated; at least to me anyway. I was worried about connecting lots of pots with equally lots of wiring with the possibility of accidentally damaging the VFD due to my limited knowledge?

Whilst out we detoured to Maplins where I bought 6M of screened single core cable; they didn't have twin or quad core in stock; also bought were a pair of 8K2 and 7K5 resistors.

Regarding the motor being connected and set up correctly Nick; an excellent question but I'm used to playing around with motors so yes all is OK in this area but many times such a simple question can solve a problem especially for a complete novice.

After dinner I set to with a passion. First things first; try out Refugee's theory regarding 1VDC being equal to 1,000 rpm. I decreased the frequency at PD005 to 40 and at switch on the pot gave even less sweep; I then increased the frequency to 130 at PD005 and sure enough now the pot had a wider sweep so I can confirm you are bang on Refugee; well done.

I'm becoming more agile between laying full out under the hall floor and start/stopping the VFD from the remote controls in the garage. In basic terms what I needed was a voltage dropper? I'm used to these having restored many vintage radios so first thing I did was to attach a pair of short tails to one of the 8K2 resistors using solder.

I removed the cable from +10V on the VFD and connected one end of the resistor into the 10V terminal connecting the other end to the just released lead (Series). This I can understand and sure enough the result was a larger sweep of the wiper but still only giving half sweep which was a big improvement over a sixth sweep without resistor installed.

OK so now I had achieved half sweep at 10V with resistor installed; what if I connect to the 5V terminal on the VFD? I connected to the 5V terminal and great the pot was now giving full sweep at the required top speed of 3,000 rpm with about 10 degrees of dead pot from zero rpm which isn't much of a problem.

So now with all the information kindly supplied by you guys I've now got the answer to my original question and the lathe is fully usable.

I'm downright stubborn though and thinking about the results regarding the 1V = 1,000 rpm and both Nick and Peter saying the VFD should run without modification from the 10V with a 10K pot once again I lay under the hall floor and started to read the instruction manual doing a bit of key pressing having to keep moving between my prone uncomfortable position to standing in the garage to start/stop the lathe.

I knew something had caught my eye previously whilst reading the manual so I took my time reading through each parameter whilst I was growing colder and colder then I spotted it at PD070; Analog Input? This looked good to me so play around a bit; "0" it was set to was giving the current results; "1" increased the sweep and at this point it was still hooked up to 5V. "4" had a dramatic influence; the speed now dropped right back?

Then I thought the pot is giving a much reduced speed to previously and surely this is a step in the right direction and possibly a big breakthrough? I completely removed the resistor and reconnected the pot directly to 10V. What a huge improvement; previously with the current connections and 10K pot into 10V I could only achieve one sixth sweep now with PD070 set at "4" the pot is giving a good half sweep?

I think this result proves the problem to be associated with parameter adjustments and what a positive result for a change?

At this point I simply had to quit as I was by now feeling frozen but I'm now very optimistic about getting this VFD set up as intended by the manufacturer; what a pity though Huanyang are so backwards at coming forwards with information to save all the hours so far put in by me and of course all you guys who are trying your best to help me out which I can't thank you all enough for.

Perhaps PD070 isn't the correct parameter to adjust to achieve the result I'm after but it's only a matter of time before I do stumble upon the answer; PD070 however is a positive step in the right direction; how many more steps to take yet?

I'll spend more time reading the manual looking for "analog" or anything to do with remote controls; the answer is there I just need to identify it?

Any ideas on this new information are still most welcome and I'm pleased this problem has generated so much interest; it's even electrical unlike my usual chimney building or tree felling activities.

Kind regards, Col.

[pwdrive]

There you go indeed Nick..... the "Huangyang" could be a clone of the Huanyang....

Nobody seems to have cracked the pot problem code as yet so whats going on, should be a breeze for some computer experts out in the big wide world.
The Huangyang website I looked at didn't tell much at all, maybe I got the wrong one, it didn't look very professional to me, the Mitsi site for all there VFD stuff has downloads for all the technical guff etc.

I have looked for the Huangyang backup service/technical dept in the UK but can't find it as yet.

I don't think it is fair to snub contributors to the mechanichal engineering forums regarding VFD's, some have done well including writing code for control interface etc.

Lawrence.

[Nick]

Huanyang are a tiny tiny company by comparison with the world-wide behemoth that is Mitsubishi - they are also only based in China, hence no world-wide network of support which gives low overheads - they get the world market via eBay and consequently can charge only 100 quid for something that others charge several times that for.

You get what you pay for to some extent - I have no doubt that the Huanyang is a great piece of kit, but by paying 100 quid you get little if any support, except from your peers, and they are mostly in the dark as well... caveat emptor and all that.

Regarding threads on other fora - I'm not knocking them all by any means, but there seems to be an almost complete lack of understanding out there on woodworking and CNC fora as to what VFDs really are, and how to use them. The signal to noise ratio is very poor.

Personally, I'd buy one if I needed it - they seem to be reliable and well built, but as I stated before, VFDs are complex beasts, subtle and quick to anger, so need lots of TLC...

[pwdrive]

Picture of the two pot scheme (description posted ealier) to cover a certain voltage swing, self explanatory, can be used in all sorts of scenarios.
I used similar to the get right feel to a regen pot where regen pot was controlling G2 on a pentode regen, obviously I used different values for that application.

Lawrence.

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks Nick and Lawrence. I've been busy with the garage conversion; the garage ceiling is now painted and this morning I've connected a two way garage consumer unit (Crabtree from Scewfix); I can now play around in peace in the garage with the electrics; two of the additional strip lights are in place and once all three are working I hope the black hole finally takes a hike; I think five strip lights might give sufficient light to work with and if not I'll add more.

As you rightly say Nick these Yuanyang VFD's are excellent value for money and they certainly do the job as intended; I like mine and am considering buying another just for bench use whilst playing around with my 3 phase motors. One point worth knowing is that these VFD's can power a range of motors up to their limit; I'm using my 2.2KW VFD to power a 1.1KW motor; the VFD needs each motor matching to it so it's not simply a case of hooking up any motor and running them. Basic set up is simple enough and the manual supplied with the VFD is clear enough. The only problem I've encountered is the speed control pot which has been a downright pain to sort out unaided by assistance from Yuanyang but this is a small price to pay for such a useful bit of kit. Once the garage is converted into my workshop I'll feel more settled to play around with the VFD adjustments but at the moment the garage is cluttered and I can't work in such conditions.

I can fully use the Graduate as it is now and am happy with the VFD but once I get time to play around more I'll crack the pot code then add the information onto the forum for the world to see; it's possible I've got further than most who have also suffered this problem because although I've seen the problem a number of times no one yet has posted a solution?

I've been so busy that I kept forgetting to post the Jubilee on eBay; last night I finally remembered before going to bed so posted the Jubilee but with a £200 fixed price; if it didn't sell I wouldn't cry over it because this Jubilee is a lovely lathe and at the moment it's stripped down so not under my feet too much. After shopping this morning I checked my mail and was amazed that the Jubilee had already been sold and is to be collected this Saturday; I also stated No PayPal please cash only so all in all a good result and I think a fair deal to the both of us.

After dinner I'll have a go at connecting the additional lighting up in the garage; it's all coming together nicely.

Thanks everyone for your help; information and circuit diagrams; much appreciated and hopefully in the near future I'll be able to add a new thread with all the VFD information?

Kind regards, Col

[Retired]

Hi,

The Jubilee was collected this morning as arranged so having now sold the Jubilee I'll never complete the clutch project which is a pity because it was interesting but now I can concentrate on using the Graduate lathe which is fully running and a beauty to own; the Graduate is a lathe I'll definitely keep.

It's strange how things developed; I bought the Jubilee not too long ago with the intention of keeping it; I set the Jubilee up in the workshop which I had converted to woodworking from an electronics workshop. New tool racks were installed and the Jubilee was in full running order with all new electrics and powered through a VFD giving variable speed etc in fact the Jubilee was an excellent lathe.

I think I only ever used the Jubilee a couple of times experimenting with chatter work; I even spent over £186 buying a Sorby Patriot chuck which I still have. Just turning the two small pieces was enough to convince me that the workshop was much too small regarding freedom of movement and problems with dust so I then set about converting the garage into my new workshop which I'm still doing. I had once again got the Jubilee set up and running in the garage when I came across the Graduate being advertised. Whilst Bron and I were visiting Joe I mentioned my long time dream of owning a Graduate but the ones for sale on eBay were always at the far side of the planet? Joe suggested I also browse Gumtree which I did and came across the Graduate only a short drive from home so I grabbed the opportunity and bought the Graduate hence the Jubilee became a spare lathe. I still have the Record Power DML 24" so the Jubilee had to reluctantly go. Over the last few months all I seem to have done is to set up new workshops so hopefully the move into the garage will be the last one allowing me to move on with projects.

I did my first bit of turning on the Graduate yesterday afternoon; nothing special just making chips to try the lathe out and I'm delighted with the way the Graduate has responded to a month of TLC; it's a joy to use and so smooth.

I've only got three lathes now so wonder how long it will be before I upgrade the engineering lathe?

Kind regards, Col.