Trade Tales Back to the 1920's

[Mark R]

Hi,

Perhaps you'll have a go at French polishing Jim? Once the basics are grasped then it suddenly becomes much easier and wonderful results can be obtained from a mirror gloss to a matt finish.

Kind regards, Col.

I have to say Jim, Col's thread on French Polishing is a must, it is something I was afraid of but having done a Graves Aerial (there is a thread somewhere) as a first attempt at French Polishing I must say it is worth the effort, just to see the wood bloom. If it goes wrong just strip it back.

cheers Mark

[Radio Fixer]

Or better to me and more original, for anything post 1930, use cellulose lacquer. I have got some great results from aerosols (see http://golbornevintageradio.org/forum/sh...p?tid=3039&pid=30293#pid30293 )

Gary

[Retired]

Hi,

Many thanks Mark; having seen your Graves cabinet I'm delighted to say you achieved a wonderful finish and on your very first attempt and given your initial success I'm sure you will do more as the need arises.

http://golbornevintageradio.org/forum/sh...hp?tid=106

I recently updated the French polishing thread adding an even simpler method if a hand rubbed finish is acceptable.

You sure do produce some stunning cabinet finishes Gary using spray cans and it was seeing your exemplary restorations which got me started on radio restoration; it must be over ten years ago that I adopted you as a role model seeing your restorations in the BVWS Bulletin; work at that time I could only dream of and aspire to.

Cellulose Lacquer is indeed a top class finish Gary and it being a surface coating if anything goes wrong it can be removed and the job started over. Every finish has good and bad points. Cellulose has a number of distinct advantages over French Polish; cellulose dries rapidly and gives a tougher finish; it is also a very quick process once the cabinet has been brought to the cellulose stage. Cellulose though is sensitive to cold and can bloom easily; the fumes are harmful to health in confined spaces and the fumes if allowed to build up are explosive.

Aerosols take practice to achieve a top class finish; for a novice runs and curtains appear only too quickly as the lacquer is extremely thin in aerosols and if a clear coat is being applied then it is difficult to judge how much is going on to the surface; if possible; having the surface being sprayed horizontal helps a great deal and to facilitate this a couple of battens clamped to the front of a bench allows the cabinet to be turned allowing the panels to sit horizontally. Starting to spray near to you and working away lessens over spray.

I have decent spraying kit in compressor and assorted spray guns. This allows me to buy auto paint (clear or coloured lacquer) from specialist auto paint suppliers and I usually buy 1ltr tins of lacquer and thinners in 5ltr cans. A dedicated spray gun really does put some finish on quickly allowing wet on wet application; for home use I would never use two pack finishes as these are extremely harmful to health.

Over the years I've used my spray equipment quite a lot but now tend to use it for spraying machines and this is limited by our dire climate.

There is something special about a French polished (shellac) finish that begs to be touched and stroked and I switched to shellac as I can apply it in a confined space with little by way of equipment; it's downside if done correctly is that it is a rather slow process but when I'm working on a cabinet I'm not in a hurry.

Both shellac and lacquer are top class cabinet finishes so whichever suits the person applying it is the right one. Danish Oil is favoured by many cabinet restorers as it is incredibly simple to apply; a child could apply Danish Oil but this is one finish I would never use on a vintage cabinet. It's up to the owner of a vintage radio cabinet as to what finish is applied and I would never criticize the choice. My choices would be shellac; lacquer or varnish.

I've still got a lot to learn when it comes to finishing but with every restoration I've done I've gained more experience.

Kind regards, Col.

[Joe]

Danish Oil is favoured by many cabinet restorers as it is incredibly simple to apply; a child could apply Danish Oil.

And it looks like one has!

- Joe

[Yorkie]

Radio cabinets will invariably have originally been sprayed with cellulose lacquer, often on top of toner. These ‘sit on’ the veneer – they don’t penetrate it, so when a cabinet is stripped with Nitromers etc, if Danish oil is then applied, the cabinet will be lighter than original. If the original shade is desired, that can only be achieved by either toner, or by stain, but remember that stain will penetrate the wood and can’t be reversed once applied. If it’s desired to apply oil over stain, the stain should be water based - not spirit based, or the oil will not penetrate the wood.

As an alternative to Danish oil or tung oil, if a high gloss finish close to the original is desired, apart from clear car lacquers such as Tetrosyl, clear, Pre-catalysed solvent based lacquer is a pre-mixed varnish and cellulose mix that’s ready for use straight from an aerosol can is avaiable. As a guide to what the end result is like, nitro cellulose lacquers are widely used for musical instruments such as pianos and guitars, so if that’s the sort of finish you are looking for, that’s the way to go. It's important to appreciate that once Danish Oil is applied to timber, unlike lacquer, the process cannot be reversed. The oil soaks into the timber, and doesn't just 'dry' - it cures. That is a chemical change takes place, which is why each coat must be allowed to cure before the next one is applied.

A little about what Danish oil actually consists of might be of interest

There’s no industry standard ‘recipe’ for the ingredients and formulations for so-called “Danish Oil.” The main ingredients are drying oils such as linseed oil (extracted from the seeds of the flax plant), and tung oil or modified soya oil, blended with solvents (mineral spirits, naphtha, turpentine, citrus oil, etc.), and varnish (alkyd, phenolic, or polyurethane, etc.). However, the actual ingredients may - and probably do - vary widely among manufacturers. But whatever the brand, most makers will state that it dries to a satin sheen – not gloss. The higher the proportion of tung oil as compared to linseed oil, the glossier the finish is likely to be. Some brands (Liberon for example), state that the main ingredient in their Danish oil is tung oil, and state that the finish is ‘satin to gloss’.

For a higher gloss finish, tung oil rather than Danish oil might be a better bet, but as with Danish oil, will need perhaps five or six coats, with each coat being left for a day or so to completely dry and cure before the next is applied. Fine wire wool (0000 grade) is probably the best way to flat it down between coats before finally buffing it with pastewax. Whatever oil is used should be wiped off when applied, and not allowed to lie on the surface or to ‘pond’ as that will prevent the oil from curing before the next coat is applied. Tung oil is extracted from the nuts of the tung tree. Its ability to dry quickly and polymerize into a tough, glossy, waterproof coating has made it an especially valuable ingredient in paints, varnishes, lino, oilcloth and printing inks.

I claim no special knowledge or experience of finishing radio cabinets – my experience is as a woodworker and woodturner. The method of application of wood finishes differs, and there are other considerations for woodturners. EG, for such things as salad bowls, fruit bowls, children’s toys etc, woodturners avoid finishes derived from nuts, as these are not food-safe, due to the risks from nut allergies. This is not a consideration for radios as the only creatures likely to dine off a radio cabinet are the dreaded woodworm!

[Radio Fixer]

I simply would hate myself if I refinished a decent radio cabinet in either Danish or Tung. And another is polyurethane. This one 'cos I once bought a rare radio (I have neve seen another in 15 years) that had been stripped to the naked and then slathered with poly. It was simply a pig to get off. It turned into a swan though and is a radio that even non avids stop and admire if its on display on the sideboard.

I have tried French Polish and its fairly easy to get the hang of on radios with simple flat surfaces where the rubber can run off the end, so to speak. You will know what I mean if you have ever done any. But without a bucket full of experience then cabinets with inset and complex panels or odd shapes are impossible. Here's a couple of examples: both a breeze with spray.

   
   

Gary

[Radio Fixer]

I said "both a breeze with spray" but I should have said compared to FP. As Colin said, in an earlier post, aerosols do have a learning curve as well but its much less for cabinets like the two illustrated here.

Some expert once said "I only make it look easy" and thats true at first for aerosols. You can buy knowledge, there are plenty of books on just about everything, but experience can only be gained.

From the ones I've used, aerosols vary widely, get the right ones and used right, and the finish is good enough for most applications straight from the can. I dont buy that theres anything special about FP in terms of being more tactile, my best lacquer ones are equally so to me. As an example of 'straight from the can' the turntable cabinet above was only buffed out with #0000 wire wool and wax but is excellent even 6" away with reading glasses. It stands alongside a large cabinet that was rubbed out with pumice and rottenstone but does not look down market in comparison. Partly thats due to the smaller size. Also the way its viewed and the birch veneer used for the curved body. Birch is a particularly nice wood to refinsh.

Colin also said aerosols can be dangerous because of fumes and explosions, but with the right mask I cant even smell the ones I use when spraying. Believe me when I come out of the garage and shut the door, and remove the mask, its really powerful. The stink is against it if you try to do it in an indoor workshop but to me FP makes me equally sick and because it takes longer than a spray it was hard to wear a mask all of the time. You would have to be really daft to spray any lacquer near naked flames or even with an electric fire on. Dont do that and there wont be explosions and I must have used a 3 figure sum of cans by now. Once the lacquer is hard the of course the spray area can be ventilated. Warmth is needed so I wait for summer although prep can be done during the cold months but I never leave a cabinet anywhere other than indoors.


Gary

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks David for the information regarding Danish Oil. Danish oil dries reasonably quickly in warm conditions and is extremely easy to apply. A genuine oiled finish is Linseed Oil and this is slow drying; my old Charles Hayward book on finishing states a linseed oil finish is never actually finished as the surface will always accept another coat. The old method of using linseed oil was to keep applying coats over two or three months and after each coat the oil would be buffed; to facilitate this buffing and to save great strain on arms old craftsmen wrapped a common brick in soft cloth saving having to bear down on the cloth. Old farmhouse tables benefited from a linseed oil finish as very hot pans could be placed on a table so treated with impunity.

The two restored items in the pictures Gary look wonderful and up to your usual very high standard; if these don't encourage others to have a go at finishing a "woody" then nothing will.

I agree Gary when you say cabinets with flat panels are easier to French polish; mouldings are more difficult and these need brushing with care; openings in panels also cause problems but as you say experience helps and practicing on simple cabinets helps a great deal.

You are wise and sensible Gary in using the correct mask for spraying; I use a proper respirator fitted with a vapour cartridge and as you say during spraying the paint cannot be smelled and if it can then it is time to change the cartridge. It is so easy to underestimate the fumes being emitted whilst spraying; even using aerosol cans the fumes build very quickly in a confined space like an enclosed garage or workshop. The "stink" you mention Gary is related to the fumes; the greater the stink the more fumes. It's possible that an explosion will not occur due to build up of fumes even if spraying a thousand times but what about the one time when everything is just right and an explosion does occur? This is something I do worry about as I not only use lots of aerosol's but I blast paint on using a big compressor and spray gun; I also French polish in a confined workshop.

Only a fool would spray paint near a naked flame but what about sparks generated from lights and even more basic than this what about static? When I remove a jumper in the dark it's like a firework demonstration at times depending on the jumper material. An explosion from a garage or workshop full of paint fumes will never be a pleasant experience.

Around 1972 I was employed as a glass fibre laminator and the tools were washed in open containers of acetone. One day whilst my colleague was washing a roller out two containers of acetone erupted in flames; the reason could have been the intense sun beating in through the small square roof windows or even a spark from his clothing. The fire was quickly extinguished and we carried on working as if nothing had happened.

I seldom use my paint spraying equipment because the weather prevents it. I do use aerosol's and at times I have long sessions using shellac; I prefer the smell of shellac to lacquer and I never resort to using a mask whilst French polishing.

It's worth mentioning that rags soaked in oil should be quickly and safely disposed of; if piled they can self ignite without warning; the odd rag can be opened and placed flat on a bench without trouble but otherwise an air tight container is the way to go. Wire wool also burns.

If I'm banging on about the dangers of paint fumes it's because it only takes one explosion to destroy lives. Better safe than sorry.

I've done quite a bit of paint spraying over the years and find it most satisfying to watch the results appear; if applied correctly "over-spray" can be avoided leaving a beautiful finish straight from the gun or aerosol and spraying is a technique quickly learned.

If I didn't suffer 9 months winter and 3 months bad weather every year Gary it's highly likely I would never have touched shellac; I find it most frustrating having decent spraying equipment but being unable to use it due to our terrible climate here on the valley side. On our hottest summers days (25 degrees C) I've sprayed just inside the garage entrance whilst watching tiny whirlwinds at the base of the door frames; exterior painting is a major challenge. It's snowing as I type.

Given better conditions I'm sure we would both be discussing the merits of spray paint Gary without shellac even being mentioned but because of my working environment I adopted shellac as a finishing medium as I can apply shellac in comfort of a small sealed workshop.

I'm forever moaning about the weather and heres an example. On Sunday I visited the BBC weather website and checked the weather for Huddersfield. Bron and I intended to visit Boundary Mills in Colne on Monday (yesterday) going after dinner. The morning was forecast as fine with sleet in the afternoon? Yesterday morning we got up to snow; being worried about becoming stranded we decided to visit Boundary Mills In Rotherham instead. I threw the snow chains under the drivers seat and already having snow tyres fitted we set off yesterday morning; by the time we had traveled two miles to the top of Grange Moor the snow was coming down and covering. It eased off towards Rotherham. Whilst in the store Bron said it's snowing heavily outside? Sure enough it was coming down in big flakes so we returned home. The car was messed up and wet so upon arriving home I washed the car then backed it into the garage allowing me to leather it dry; all this time it was still snowing. Whilst having dinner someone threw a switch; the snow abruptly stopped and we could not see the TV screen for brilliant sunshine; not another flake of snow fell all afternoon. Out of interest I had a look at the BBC weather once again only to find the forecast had now been changed?

Finishing is a huge subject and perhaps more suited to a dedicated thread? Sorry Jim we appear to have hi-jacked your thread but it's generating a lot of interesting discussion.

Kind regards, Col.

[Radio Fixer]

Well I havent been blown up yet Colin but do ventilate after a few rounds of spraying. I guess every time you do a coat would be best but that lets dust in so its a compromise. I dont worry about it, been taking considered risks all my life and I'm still around.

I drop thinner rags in a bucket of water. Eventually they get dried out outdoors and disposed of.

I reckon to be even safer now as cabinet refinishing is at an end; well unless an exceptional radio turns up and there are very few that interest me now.

Weather report: no real snow, a little frost and a bit of dust. Sunny most of yesterday and earlier this morning, now dulled over a little. They said we would get some snow this morning but its late, may come tonight when I'm tucked up in bed. Still get a childish thrill looking out of the window and seeing it all white. Hope it goes soon though. The only proper place for snow is a ski resort.

Gary

[Joe]

Sorry Jim we appear to have hi-jacked your thread but it's generating a lot of interesting discussion.

At least he know's what we're like now!

- Joe