Battery Powered Vehicles, The Future??

[Raditechman]

Do they use Oxygen and emit CO2?. If so surely that is not desirable.  Although a lot better than burning diesel or petrol.
I think the worlds Oxygen level is in slow decline.

https://phys.org/news/2018-01-broadest-v...tists.html

John

[ppppenguin]

Atmospheric oxygen is stable. For now at any rate. The problem is low oxygen levels in water, especially the sea. CO2 is another matter, atmospheric CO2 is historically high and a very real problem.

AFAIK, flow batteries don't have any significant effect on O2 or CO2 levels.

[Murphyv310]

I've said it before and still believe that the decimation of rain forests, forests at large and the ruination of planets plant life is by far the reason the planets balance is worsening.
If this ruination of the planet by us hadn't occurred then it would have compensated for increased CO2 levels perfectly well.
Its all very well blaming emissions but we are destroying the planets filtration system and it still goes on at an alarming rate.

[Refugee]

That oxygen problem is caused by a combination of fertilizer run off and organic waste being dumped into water.
It is going to be awkward to make electric cars provide peak loads because they will be in use at the times the power is needed.
For flow batteries the service stations would have to carry extra stocks of electrolyte on site to feed in the power to satisfy the demand.

[ppppenguin]

For flow batteries the service stations would have to carry extra stocks of electrolyte on site to feed in the power to satisfy the demand.

Indeed they would, but petrol statiosn already keep large volumes of liquids in tanks to satisfy peak demand. This is part of the attraction of flow batteries - the cell is separate from the stuff that gets charged.  It works well for static installations as capacity (kWh) is limited only by the size of the tanks. It works for cars because the stuff that gets charged is a liquid and quickly replenished at a filling station.  Sounds a bit like petrol to me Except that it's regenerated on site rather than brought in by tanker.

If they can really make it work then it's a great looking solution to low emission cars. Lithium has a massive head start but new technologies can make huge leaps very fast. Let's hope it's one of them.

Elsewhere I've read about flow batteries with lower cost and low toxicity electrolytes. At present the main electrolytes are vanadium based. Relatively expensive and not nice in the environment. Newer organic electrolytes are showing promise: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery#Organic For transport use, energy density probably trumps cost and toxicity.

Imagine a future filling station. Instead of petrol and diesel you might have a vanadium pump and an organic pump. Fuelling might be a 2 stage process. First the pump extracts the old electrolyte, then it fills up with fresh. All inside 5 minutes. Who would want hydrogen with all the cryogenic handling. Or lithium batteries with 20 to 40 minute stops.

[Murphyv310]

Well said Jeffrey and exactly my thoughts and the way to go.

[Refugee]

I feel that whatever were to replace petrol/diesel needs to have a stop time of less than 10 minutes.
People will just say "time is money" and continue for as long as possible with oil based fuel.
At least you would be able to recover a car that has run out with a can of electrolyte as opposed to dragging a portable generator out or hiring a flat bed truck.

[Murphyv310]

Very true Simon.
Time "is" money and you'd certainly know that with some of the employers I've been lucky (not) to have worked with. The thought of running out of battery power say in the Scottish highlands or other remote places would need to be addressed and I fear it never would be, the filling stations are already there they just need to be modified, surely a much simpler solution than all the work required to put charging points here there and everywhere.

[boater sam]

The infrastructure will need so much alteration for multiple charging points that it will cost a fortune and cause massive disruption.
The very idea of charging from street furniture is impossible, the majority of lamp posts and road signs are wired at best with 1mm twin and earth cable. There are no fuses.
The principle is that the cable will burn off in the event of a short before the next substation trips off.
When I was on vehicle recovery there were many instances of sparking and burning cable after collisions, and live vehicles when they were stranded on top of demolished signs or lamp posts.

[Refugee]

Like that dog that raised its leg next to a broken keep left sign