Making a bespoke wooden box.

[Joe]

Interesting as always David but why did you have to do it in b----- metric?

When I was a kid you could get attachments for electric drills, though goodness knows what you'd do about the the speed, which I always fancied.

I'm afraid that if I were to get anything now it'd be a metal turning lathe as that's what I've wanted most since laving school, though have usually found ways around my deficiency.

- Joe

[Yorkie]

Interesting as always David but why did you have to do it in b----- metric?

- Joe

Personally, when it comes to measurements, Im 'ambidextrous' in that I can, and do, flit from Imperial to Metric - 15 CMs, 6" - it's all the same to me, but I used Metric in my posting as that's what the makers of lathes do, and - given that this is a 'family show' - in deference to our younger members, who are metric compliant!

(Yet more 'mission creep' away from the original topic of a bespoke wooden box, said David, smilingly tut tutting to himself!)

Night night all.

[AlanBeckett]

In my previous lifetime, where we still made some ancient spares from old Drawings, one of the younger generation said to me one day 'How many millimetres are there in an inch?' I considered despair.
Alan

[Retired]

Hi,

Oh boy Alan if only we had a warehouse each. I'd love your Drummond if I had the space thank you; of course though had I the space I would never have parted with both my big lathes in the first place. Imagine a lovely big warm well lit warehouse full of all the old machines; our wives would think we had left home as we would be like kids let loose in a sweet shop. I wonder if the council will let me build a big warehouse in our back garden after all our next door neighbours built a big 4 bed roomed house in theirs.

Is my memory correct Alan in thinking it was the Drummond you had the bed "ways" ground? I also agree with you that one off turning is a slow job but the old methods just can't be beat for this kind of work; before retiring the place I worked at had lots of CNC machines plus robots but in one department alone there were two centre lathe turners employed full time. It's no fun to watch a CNC get out of control through a fault or to watch the robot painter become bored with life and start to spray the walls and ceiling. Modern technology is very useful for mass production but let me play with my toys any time and use the skills I learned so many years ago.

Can we entice you into squeezing a nice little lathe into your shed Jamie; I'm sure you would soon find a great deal of use for it.

I'll look forward to seeing your work finished with Danish Oil uc182. I'm pleased you enjoyed your visits to the sawmills; these places fascinate me and I've seen giant sawmills in operation in America on “The New Yankee Workshop”; these sawmills put millions of board feet of timber through in a week. I love the smell of freshly cut timber and I always enjoyed going into the timber department which I was in charge of at work to get my daily fix; it used to set me up for the day.

Thanks for the kind words and I'm sure you too will soon be turning out excellent items as all it takes is practice; I used to poke tools into timber spinning on a lathe at first and had many nasty catches and dig ins but eventually I grasped what worked and what didn't and now woodturning gives me much pleasure.

Your saw bench is a beauty and will give you many years service and at such a good price. The cost of such machines is absolutely minimal once you start producing work in fact all my machines are what I would consider totally free of charge due to the vast amount of money they have saved me over the years. I'm delighted to see that your saw bench is powered through a belt driven motor as these are very easy and cheap to maintain unlike the saw benches with the low centre motor having the blade fitted directly to the motor shaft; such motors are very expensive to replace; I know because the company I worked at used to make these in large numbers. It's good to see the riving knife and crown guard are in place and for your safety never try running material through the saw without both fitted or you will end up with missiles being fired at you.


A bandsaw and planer thicknesser are extremely useful to have and the wider the planer the better. Regarding the jack planes you mention; I have a Stanley Bailey hand plane still like brand new in its original box sitting in the bench in the garage; I've owned this plane for over twenty years and perhaps use it once a year. Power planes are very cheap and much easier to use than a hand plane; I was looking in the Screwfix catalogue this morning and a power plane can be bought brand new for around £35; using a power plane takes practice and of course being a power tool commands respect regarding safety but frees the user from worrying about grain direction in fact many hard woods such as Sapele have interlocking and alternating grain making planing by hand methods a nightmare whereas a power plane will leave a nice flat surface without ripping lumps out of the surface. Over thirty years ago I bought an industrial ELU power plane this is a powerful plane and I did use it quite a lot at first but it now resides in its original box alongside the Bailey plane in the bench; the ELU has never had a blade change or even the blades changed over showing how little it has been used. I also bought a brand new Stanley rebating plane which has never been used in fact I haven't seen it for years but it too is in one of the benches in its as new box. The point of this is that it is easy to fall into the trap of buying tools that are expensive only seldom to use them.

The two hand planes I use regularly are a small Stanley shoulder plane which cost about £20 thirty years ago and is absolutely delightful and also a small Stanley block plane. I find having my 10" planer thicknesser virtually renders hand planes obsolete for my projects.

Thanks for adding such a wealth of information as usual David and your comments about working for less than the minimum wage are bang on. One off items such as turned bowls would I fear seldom pay for themselves let alone show a profit; one point worth mentioning regarding turned work is the possibility of rejects or damaged turnings due a catch or dig in whilst turning. Items such as small trinket or jewelry boxes would lend them to being produced in quantity as jigs could be set up for repetition cutting of parts also a lot of the finishing could be completed whilst the material was in board form such as after planing as it could be quickly sanded and save a great amount of time; for example it is much easier to sand a flat board rather than make the board into a box then sand the inside of the box.

I find a great aid to be nothing more than cheap drawing paper and a pencil; such items are available from Poundland; it is better to work out mistakes on paper and throw paper away rather than make mistakes on the actual timber which is expensive. If I was running a batch of anything in expensive hardwood I would consider using cheap softwood for test pieces.

Jigs are extremely useful and many jigs can be made from offcuts; they don’t need to look pretty but they do need making with care; work needs planning out and cutting sequences determined in order to obtain the best yield from material because any offcuts or waste directly affect profit. On machines; stops are used for cross cutting and fences for ripping setting for each operation then running the entire batch through but most importantly ensuring by cutting a test piece that the size is correct because although machines save a great deal of labour they can quickly produce a whole pile of waste.

The wooden box shown in this thread took me many days to make it being a one off but I could have run a hundred or even a thousand of these boxes off quite quickly once the design and parts dimensions were established. I designed a large steel bench whilst at work for use in pallet making; the bench had four adjustable arms for the bearer spacing and stops to two sides for top board location. The sawn softwood was purchased by the wagon load and a very old Bursgreen radial arm saw set up with long benches; the saw was fitted with adjustable stops and enough timber was cross cut to produce the batch of pallets of one size; the timber was stacked up to the maximum cut capacity of the saw and cut in multiples with a single pull of the saw then the entire stack was advanced to the stop and cut again; the cut timber was neatly stacked on pallets and a hand pallet truck used to move it around as required. With the steel bench adjusted taking minutes the pallets were assembled using nail guns the guns being counter balanced suspended from an over head runner guide. The pallets for general use were two way pallets and sizes ranged from very small 12” square up to Euro size. The smallest pallets could be assembled and nailed doing two a minute. With good planning it’s not difficult to produce in bulk.

Assuming a batch of these boxes had been made all to the one design they could be sold at multiple outlets such as gift shops or even on eBay at a “Buy now” price. These are just a few ideas as I’ve been in industry mass producing items from blankets to electric motors for many years.

Go for it Joe and spoil yourself; buy a nice metalworking lathe and set it up in your spare room; it will give you endless hours of pleasure.

Regarding measurements I too use both imperial and metric; I find my cheap digital vernier caliper to be a most useful bit of kit and it gets used most times when I’m in the garage; it measures both imperial and metric at the push of a button. It’s worth mentioning that old fashioned British made machinery will be made to imperial measurements and most likely be held together with Whitworth threaded fasteners such as bolts and set screws. Imperial sized bearings are still readily available and bearings are surprisingly quite cheap in the smaller sizes.

I’ve been sitting at my bench in the workshop using a fret saw to cut sheet brass and have ended up feeling frozen so I’m warming myself up sitting at the computer where it is slightly warmer; putting the clocks forward and calling it British Summer Time doesn’t warm my workshop or garage up.

Kind regards, Col.

[Yorkie]

Many woodturners use quite small lathes as they only make small items. The factors to consider when thinking of acquiring a lathe are:

1) The diameter over the bed: This diameter is twice the distance from the centre of the chuck to the bed of the lathe and will be described as the 'diameter over the bed, so for example, if the clearance from the chuck centre to bed of the lathe was 125mm, it would be described as 'diameter ove the bed, 300mm'. That would mean that you could turn an object such as a bowl or a platter, with a diameter up to 300mm.

Ooops, my sharp-eyed chum Colin (Retired) has spotted that I'd managed to double up 125mm to 300mm. How dumb is that? It's what used ot be called a 'senior moment' but in these PC times, is known as an 'intellectual interlude'. It amounts to the same thiing, and come under the generic heading of 'losing the plot'. I should of course have written 250mm (near enough 10") rather than 300mm. Colin is far to kind to highlight this error in the full gaze of a forum posting, so I'm engaging in a spot of 'self-flagellation' and highlighting it myself. Stupid Boy!

There are some lathes that have a movable headstock which can be swung out from it's normal position facing the tailstock, and by using what's known as an outrigger, larger diameter objects can be turned that would be possible over the lathe bed. For example, my own lathe has a clearance of 200mm (8") from the centre of the headstock to the bed, so the 'swing over bed' is 400mm (16"), whch mean that with the headstock in he normal position, I could turn an object such as a stool top or small circular table top) of up to 16" diameter. However, by swinging the headstock out, 90 degrees so that it's clear of the bed and the bench, by using an outrigger toolrest, I could turn an object up to 740mm (29").

My Nova lathe model is known as a 1624/44, which means that it has a turning capacity of 16"diameter, and 24" between centres for spindle work, extendable with an extra bed section taking it to 44" between centres.

A good test of the accuracy of a lathe is to put a centre in the headstock and tailstock and bring them together in what's called a 'kiss test'. If the lathe is accurately machined and set uo, the tips of the points should line up exactly, both vertically and horizontally.

I've just read this posting, and find it deadly dull, in fact it would probably bore the boobs off a buffalo at 5000 paces, so, sorry I must apologise for that and desist::D

David

[AlanBeckett]

I'd love your Drummond if I had the space thank you.

It isn't as big as you might think, about 5' x 2' - see http://www.lathes.co.uk/drummond5inchphotoessay/.
Mine's not as swish as that, although I would claim it's mainly cosmetic, and mine is a slightly later one so probably works better. The one shortcoming of mine is that it doesn't have the big left hand leg with the drive, just a fairly crude pulley and motor behind the Headstock. I wanted one 'cause they were the only ones like that as far as I know, and they have all sorts of facilities which were ahead of their time. The unfortunate thing was that no sooner had I got it home than the Chipmaster became available. Well, I had to have that didn't I?
Mind you, I almost didn't get it home. The Seller did say that it was very heavy so I asked a young strong friend to take his pickup. We found the place, backed the truck up to the garage, got a grip on it and heaved - nothing. It was almost as though it was stuck down. We finished up sliding it across the garage floor to the back of the truck, unbolting the lefs and sliding it onto the truck bed, which fortunately was just the right height. When we got back here we summoned up a couple more heroes and moved it into the garage. It hasn't moved far since.
I'm afraid that it really was a lathe too far and either it or the old Bantam will have to go
[/quote]

Is my memory correct Alan in thinking it was the Drummond you had the bed "ways" ground?

No, that was the Dalton 6. Once again that one rather overlaps the Longbed Pools Special - see http://www.lathes.co.uk/pools/index.html - so I fear one must go.

I also agree with you that one off turning is a slow job but the old methods just can't be beat for this kind of work; before retiring the place I worked at had lots of CNC machines plus robots but in one department alone there were two centre lathe turners employed full time. It's no fun to watch a CNC get out of control through a fault or to watch the robot painter become bored with life and start to spray the walls and ceiling. Modern technology is very useful for mass production but let me play with my toys any time and use the skills I learned so many years ago.

Indeed so.

Can we entice you into squeezing a nice little lathe into your shed Jamie; I'm sure you would soon find a great deal of use for it.

You might manage one of my Adepts

Alan

[ucl82]

Hi Colin,
I will probably put a separate thread up with various projects I've done so far. At least we can go off topic here on a subject that's not exactly on topic for a vintage radio forum

You've made my sawbench all embarrassed now by your compliments! It's good to hear it should be very simple to maintain and as you say has the main safety features built in which is very nice for an elderly piece of kit.
We actually have an electric planer, perhaps I just need to practice with it more as I feel happier using traditional hand planes. A lot of the time we take hardwoods raw as they come from the sawmill and turn them into a product (a shelf for example) without using any power tools, so hand planing from a dark mess into a beautiful piece of walnut for example. The cost of planes new is rather ridiculous, personally I'd rather buy older ones anyway as I find they have better quality steel. Jack and Fore planes are more expensive but smoothing planes seem very common and cheap (my two have been passed down from relatives). Of course a thicknesser and a jointer does render handplanes irrelevant for most work but we aren't allowed to use the one at school (until we no longer are officially students in a couple of weeks).

I'm fairly confident in working in both metric and imperial but I do try work in mm when making something from scratch.

I am highly tempted to bid on that metalworking lathe but sadly our workshop just doesn't have the space (and it won't fit in the back of the Marina...). I do love metalworking and lathe work however, I guess if I ever need to use one I will use one of the schools' ones (which are rarely used, and only one is useable as the others' chucks are so worn).

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks David; you would have done the same for me.

Your Drummond lathe is indeed of the style I like so much Alan; built to last many lifetimes. My Myford is a toy in comparison and I miss my Colchester Triumph; the Triumph was fitted with all power feeds; a gearbox and a Matrix clutch. I miss the clutch in particular as it made stopping and starting so easy rather than having to keep switching the 5HP motor on and off; I worked my Triumph so hard one day with repetitive start/stop that the clutch started smoking and locked solid; once it cooled down and was given a drink of oil all was well again unlike my Myford when I was cutting my wave winder gears; the motor burned out completely as it couldn't stand the pace.

It truly saddens me that such wonderful machines as these heavy industrial lathes now fetch so little money compared to the much smaller lathes such as the Myford.

There's nothing like starting at the top Jamie and I like your choice of lathe it being the John Lang lathe you posted the link to. You would know you had bought a lathe had you bought this one and it certainly would have prevented your shed blowing away although the shed might sink a couple of feet or so into its foundations. Alan is correct that such a lathe would require serious lifting equipment. When I acquired my Triumph lathe I had to hire a wagon with crane and transporting a lathe is not as easy as one would believe because such heavy lathes need lifting in a certain way if distortion of the bed is to be avoided.

I shudder to think of anyone being allowed to use such a lathe without prior training as they are extremely dangerous; such a lathe running in low gear could easily pull an arm off.

If you prefer hand planing Josh by all means go for it and enjoy it. I once bought a lot of antique Maple flooring from a demolition site wishing to make a new kitchen from it.Not only did my newly sharpened hand plane merely skid over the surface but I couldn't even cut it with my hand saw and gave the lot to a neighbour to use as firewood. The timber was as hard as granite.

I'd be pleased to see pictures and details of your completed projects Josh and am happy to hear you are gathering some nice kit around you including the Gryphon bench grinder mentioned elsewhere.

Here are a few pictures of my Colchester Triumph and Dominion lathes sadly now sold to make space in my garage. The space problem can clearly be seen due to the Dominion being buried. Both lathes went over to good homes in Ireland.

Kind regards, Col.

[attachment=2171][attachment=2172][attachment=2173][attachment=2174]

[AlanBeckett]

I fear that a couple of mine have to go
I'll be keeping the Chipmaster of course and one of the small ones - Pools or Dalton. That leaves the old Bantam and the Drummond potentially surplus, although I'd like to keep one of them for rough work. With a bit of luck, after that, I'll be able to move in the garage and get some things done. I might even move things about to more convenient places. Should I keep the big Denbigh Vertical Mill or the little horizontal one, or both? Do I really need the shaper? I'm keeping the Power Hacksaw, but what's the best place for it? What about the big Denbigh Drill and the little one? I've already given the medium one away, and so on.
Still, it all makes work for the working man to do - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4dId4oNUxg
Alan

[Retired]

Hi,

This was my dilemma too Alan; plenty of excellent machinery that was a joy to own but couldn't move in the garage without bumping into something; I just became fed up with it all and had a good clear out. Both my big lathes went as did my Rapidor power hacksaw; Denford 16" Sharpedge and Denford pedestal double ended grinder.

I was very sorry to see all these machines go but looking back did I really need them? Granted I've since bought another lathe and a giant bandsaw but can now use both these in comfort in fact the bandsaw cuts metal and just about anything else making it extremely versatile. The Myford lathe is bench mounted freeing up lots of valuable bench space and my garage is now nicely laid out making working in there a pleasure rather than a chore.

It is extremely hard to part with favourite toys and for some time after selling so many of mine I wondered if I had done the right thing but deep down I'm certain I made the right decision.

I fully understand what you are up against Alan but the final decision comes down to you; how often do you use your machines and what is the largest item you've used them for; perhaps smaller machines might now be more suitable allowing you to get on with projects without cracking a shin or elbow.

Kind regards, Col.