11-05-2020, 11:01 PM
(snipped, but so it's obvious which post I'm replying too)
Hi Amie,
I think I'm struggling with this. I'm worried that I might inadvertently offend you by missing the point you're making - I'm not doing so deliberately, I promise.
You raised the example of second-hand products, and with it the argument that something is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. And you're absolutely right, of course. But, I wasn't discussing s/h.
Second hand products have generally been around for a long time, and lots of people have owned them and reviewed them, and so in general, people are able to make a more informed decision (ignoring the uncertainty about condition inherent in any s/h purchase). Of course, the original marketing could still be a factor to some degree, but much less so than when the product was new and less of a known quantity. Naturally, factors like age and scarcity all come into play here as well.
But for new hi-fi products - especially when they are relatively new to market - a potential customer essentially only has the marketing to rely on.
You might think that in addition you'd have magazine reviews (on-line and print), plus what people might say in the forums. Plus advice from your dealer...
But dealers and reviewers basically regurgitate the manufacturer's marketing material. Actually, it's quite surreal when you're reading a review and you spot one of your own phrases in there! And I've even had dealers use my phrases in conversation with me (no-one knows that I write this stuff!). It's both hilarious and scary. Either way, reviews and dealers are not the independent source of information you might hope for. And of course, people reviewing gear on hi-fi forums have generally bought the gear in question, so they're not going to say anything bad about it.
I hope that this explains that I'm making a distinction between new and s/h, and explains why. In the context of esoteric hi-fi, the consumer is in a uniquely difficult position. Less so when buying s/h, or perhaps a model that has been established for many, many years, but still, it's a murky world.
More generally, I don't know how much you've investigated the hi-fi scene, but it might be interesting to take a look at some of the stuff they put out there.
I went to a random dealer's website and looked at a few valve amplifiers - all costing serious 4 or 5 figure sums. I don't want to name any companies because this is a public forum, but here's some typical examples:
So, what does this claim? Absolutely nothing - there's no information at all contained in that extract. However, what does it suggest? Just look at all those audiophile buzzwords in there: "organic", "resolution", "layered", "shimmering". That's a decent buzz-word bingo score! Lots of people wish their systems were more organic, even if you can't describe what organic is meant to mean, let alone quantify it. As a designer, I have literally no idea how to make one of my designs any more or less organic. Or shimmering!
"Speed"? What's that then? Audiophiles love that word, along with "slam" and "timing". All completely unquantifiable and meaningless in an electronic device. "Sophistication"? And I wonder what it does to make the music sound live? Perhaps there are people shuffling about in their chairs behind you? It's all nonsense, but again, highly suggestive. Who doesn't want more sophistication in their music?
They mention Tim dP, who is a well-known and respected designer, and no criticism of him is intended by me. However, note the technique of naming a designer in the marketing material (remember what I said earlier about the cult of personality in hi-fi?). Curiously, the company making this amplifier have a very strong reputation already, so don't really need to name-drop...
There's an extract from a What Hi-Fi review on the same page:
So, what exactly is this reviewer trying to say? "Modern"? I guess "drive and energy" refers to power output (25 watts per channel), but it's not clear if "similar designs" refers to other 25 watt amps. And "punch"? As for "sonic attitude", I've no idea what that means. You really have to admire these people - making this stuff up is not easy.
But note how they're basically saying what the manufacturer has said. "Modern" = "sophistication", "speed" and "live performance" = "drive and energy" and "punch". OK, they're not exact similes, but you hopefully see what I mean.
"Golden"? Wow! "Air", "space" and "realism" are definitely helping us to rack up the buzz-word bingo points, but again, what do they mean in audio engineering terms?
So, 3 amplifiers, and lots of meaningless words and phrases that say nothing specifically, but they suggest so very much. It's borderline mis-selling - the closer to the borderline, the better - but not so close that the ASA can do anything. Given the non-technical nature of the intended audience, it's actually quite deceptive - they will totally believe that the designers are indeed able to design in sophistication, realism and layers, when in reality all that is impossible.
For the sake of balance, there are a fair few other amplifiers on the same website that don't make such claims, so this sort of behaviour is not compulsory. But it is widespread. I didn't make a special effort to find the "best" examples - they are just what I found, in the order I found them in.
If you want to be truly horrified, try some cable manufacturers. Again, without naming names:
This is a line-level interconnect cable that goes in-between something like a CD player and an amplifier.
"Wider bandwidth" might be true, but even the cheapest, nastiest cable will be comfortably within 0.1dB at 20kHz. But while the high frequency response might be improved (for no practical benefit), note how that claim is stretched to the bass end as well. How can a wire improve the bass depth and cleanliness? Any wire will pass DC with no problem. And as for making the soundstage more "open", exactly how could this this claim be verified?
Cables in this range vary in price from £190 to £1,300 (rounded) for a half meter length. You can get 1m versions for about 60% more, meaning it's possible to pay £2,100 for one of these! Just to be clear, it is a piece of wire with a couple of phono plugs at each end...
Again, chosen at random, first example found. Not untypical, though... Here's a cheaper one - a bargain at only £99 for a 1m length:
Draw your own conclusions!
(11-05-2020, 06:32 PM)Amie Wrote: Hello Mark.
Hi Amie,
I think I'm struggling with this. I'm worried that I might inadvertently offend you by missing the point you're making - I'm not doing so deliberately, I promise.
You raised the example of second-hand products, and with it the argument that something is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it. And you're absolutely right, of course. But, I wasn't discussing s/h.
Second hand products have generally been around for a long time, and lots of people have owned them and reviewed them, and so in general, people are able to make a more informed decision (ignoring the uncertainty about condition inherent in any s/h purchase). Of course, the original marketing could still be a factor to some degree, but much less so than when the product was new and less of a known quantity. Naturally, factors like age and scarcity all come into play here as well.
But for new hi-fi products - especially when they are relatively new to market - a potential customer essentially only has the marketing to rely on.
You might think that in addition you'd have magazine reviews (on-line and print), plus what people might say in the forums. Plus advice from your dealer...
But dealers and reviewers basically regurgitate the manufacturer's marketing material. Actually, it's quite surreal when you're reading a review and you spot one of your own phrases in there! And I've even had dealers use my phrases in conversation with me (no-one knows that I write this stuff!). It's both hilarious and scary. Either way, reviews and dealers are not the independent source of information you might hope for. And of course, people reviewing gear on hi-fi forums have generally bought the gear in question, so they're not going to say anything bad about it.
I hope that this explains that I'm making a distinction between new and s/h, and explains why. In the context of esoteric hi-fi, the consumer is in a uniquely difficult position. Less so when buying s/h, or perhaps a model that has been established for many, many years, but still, it's a murky world.
More generally, I don't know how much you've investigated the hi-fi scene, but it might be interesting to take a look at some of the stuff they put out there.
I went to a random dealer's website and looked at a few valve amplifiers - all costing serious 4 or 5 figure sums. I don't want to name any companies because this is a public forum, but here's some typical examples:
Quote:The --'s great strength is that's it's a very organic-sounding amp. Few amplifiers combine such resolution with such a self-effacing sound. Highs are sweet and beautifully layered, producing a shimmering treble few rivals get close to. The sheer quality of the -- makes itself felt when you go back to more conventional alternatives.
So, what does this claim? Absolutely nothing - there's no information at all contained in that extract. However, what does it suggest? Just look at all those audiophile buzzwords in there: "organic", "resolution", "layered", "shimmering". That's a decent buzz-word bingo score! Lots of people wish their systems were more organic, even if you can't describe what organic is meant to mean, let alone quantify it. As a designer, I have literally no idea how to make one of my designs any more or less organic. Or shimmering!
Quote:The remarkable output transformer (a design by audio legend Tim DeParavicini) delivers speed, sophistication, and above all the ability to reproduce your music like a live performance.
"Speed"? What's that then? Audiophiles love that word, along with "slam" and "timing". All completely unquantifiable and meaningless in an electronic device. "Sophistication"? And I wonder what it does to make the music sound live? Perhaps there are people shuffling about in their chairs behind you? It's all nonsense, but again, highly suggestive. Who doesn't want more sophistication in their music?
They mention Tim dP, who is a well-known and respected designer, and no criticism of him is intended by me. However, note the technique of naming a designer in the marketing material (remember what I said earlier about the cult of personality in hi-fi?). Curiously, the company making this amplifier have a very strong reputation already, so don't really need to name-drop...
There's an extract from a What Hi-Fi review on the same page:
Quote:in sonic attitude, it sounds as modern as valve amplifiers get. There's plenty of drive and energy – both qualities similar designs fail to deliver. Few valve integrated amps have punch, but this one does.
So, what exactly is this reviewer trying to say? "Modern"? I guess "drive and energy" refers to power output (25 watts per channel), but it's not clear if "similar designs" refers to other 25 watt amps. And "punch"? As for "sonic attitude", I've no idea what that means. You really have to admire these people - making this stuff up is not easy.
But note how they're basically saying what the manufacturer has said. "Modern" = "sophistication", "speed" and "live performance" = "drive and energy" and "punch". OK, they're not exact similes, but you hopefully see what I mean.
Quote:For some people only a large triode valve like the 805 can give the golden warm tone which is so pleasing, with its feeling of air and space and sense of realism.
"Golden"? Wow! "Air", "space" and "realism" are definitely helping us to rack up the buzz-word bingo points, but again, what do they mean in audio engineering terms?
So, 3 amplifiers, and lots of meaningless words and phrases that say nothing specifically, but they suggest so very much. It's borderline mis-selling - the closer to the borderline, the better - but not so close that the ASA can do anything. Given the non-technical nature of the intended audience, it's actually quite deceptive - they will totally believe that the designers are indeed able to design in sophistication, realism and layers, when in reality all that is impossible.
For the sake of balance, there are a fair few other amplifiers on the same website that don't make such claims, so this sort of behaviour is not compulsory. But it is widespread. I didn't make a special effort to find the "best" examples - they are just what I found, in the order I found them in.
If you want to be truly horrified, try some cable manufacturers. Again, without naming names:
Quote:---'s ---- interconnects use four conductors, made from pure copper, pure silver, or a combination of both. The improved design allows you to achieve greater bandwidth meaning that the soundstage is more open, the midrange more natural, bass is deeper and cleaner and the treble sweeter.
This is a line-level interconnect cable that goes in-between something like a CD player and an amplifier.
"Wider bandwidth" might be true, but even the cheapest, nastiest cable will be comfortably within 0.1dB at 20kHz. But while the high frequency response might be improved (for no practical benefit), note how that claim is stretched to the bass end as well. How can a wire improve the bass depth and cleanliness? Any wire will pass DC with no problem. And as for making the soundstage more "open", exactly how could this this claim be verified?
Cables in this range vary in price from £190 to £1,300 (rounded) for a half meter length. You can get 1m versions for about 60% more, meaning it's possible to pay £2,100 for one of these! Just to be clear, it is a piece of wire with a couple of phono plugs at each end...
Again, chosen at random, first example found. Not untypical, though... Here's a cheaper one - a bargain at only £99 for a 1m length:
Quote:The improvements mean that the --- carries more musical detail. Dynamics are better, instruments and voices sound more realistic and there is better definition and clarity. The --- will let you see further into and get more involved with the music you listen to. Right now cables need to be better than ever, there are very affordable turn tables and digital players that deliver music with real coherence. The jump in performance over the past couple of years has been amazing, especially in relation to less expensive equipment. They need a new generation of cables, and those cables need to be able to carry a signal with the musical coherence that the new digital and analogue players are producing.
Draw your own conclusions!
