Don't scare the Horses!

[Jez]

Everything's politics, as my late Dad used to say... sometimes it's Politics and sometimes just politics.

As far as "why automotive posts are banned on some other forums" goes then I could understand, if not entirely agree with, a ban on there being threads about vehicles, or of threads going off topic to be about vehicles, on the grounds that the site is a vintage radio one not a car one. But banning people for saying eg "the military radio set had the solidity of a VW Golf door", "this turntable was considered the Rolls Royce of turntables in its day". I mean REALLY? What is to be gained from this? It strikes me as akin to the eccentric owner of a private estate banning people from walking on the cracks between the paving stones just for the mischief of doing so. Cars etc are such a large part of everyday life that phrases pertaining to them have been a part of the vernacular for longer than living memory, hence "Mondeo man", "the new mini of...." etc.

[Murphyv310]

Everything's politics, as my late Dad used to say... sometimes it's Politics and sometimes just politics.

As far as "why automotive posts are banned on some other forums" goes then I could understand, if not entirely agree with, a ban on there being threads about vehicles, or of threads going off topic to be about vehicles, on the grounds that the site is a vintage radio one not a car one. But banning people for saying eg "the military radio set had the solidity of a VW Golf door", "this turntable was considered the Rolls Royce of turntables in its day". I mean REALLY? What is to be gained from this? It strikes me as akin to the eccentric owner of a private estate banning people from walking on the cracks between the paving stones just for the mischief of doing so. Cars etc are such a large part of everyday life that phrases pertaining to them have been a part of the vernacular for longer than living memory, hence "Mondeo man", "the new mini of...." etc.

Well spoken! Totally agree with everything you have said on this post.

[Refugee]

The best name for it is "traffic light tax".
In Sheffield they had to cut a lot of street trees down because they were feeding on NOX through there leaves.
They were chopping them down to bring the levels up on pollution monitors.
The tree chopping did stop once it was pointed out that it was environmental fraud.
If I was going to stop traffic pollution I would go for charging parents for dropping there children off at school with double for horse box tugs as they are for transporting livestock and not children.
The collected money would pay for electric school busses and replacement of crumbly concrete roofs with solar tiles to charge the busses up. It is ideal because school busses are idle when the sun is up.

[Sinewave]

Personally, I welcome initiatives like ULEZ, and look forward to a wider rollout.

Of course it's not about extorting people. It's really disappointing that intelligent people hold such views - you'd expect that from the Sun/Mail-reading pub bores, not engineers who are capable - by dint of actually being an engineer - of original research and critical thinking.

I drive, but I also walk and cycle. Air pollution might not be as visible as it was before I was around, but it's still there, and more insidious as a result. Pollution from traffic isn't the whole story, but it's a significant factor that should be tackled. And when on foot, there's a world of difference between 20 and 30mph. It just feels so much better. I hate walking on main roads around here, and can't wait for a blanket 20mph in this town (not that there's any hope of that at the moment). Similar comments apply to cycling. When you can cycle at 20, idiots will still force their way past, but the majority realise you're not holding them up.

I do have some sympathy with anti-SUV views. Like all things, they might have their place, but most are bought as statement. Or just because people are sheeple. Just imagine how thirsty and how much more polluting these things would be if we hadn't had the developments in technology in recent decades. And just think how much better things would be if the majority drove smaller Focus/Fiesta sized cars. The numbers are easy to compare.

But then, just think how much better things would be if people didn't have unreasonably powerful cars on public roads. Seriously, who needs more than 100 BHP to go about their daily commute? I could display power and torque dials on a car I had recently, and you'd use less than 20BHP when cruising at 70 on the flat. In normal acceleration I'd never use more than about 80BHP (and this was quite a heavy car). If you floored it you'd use the full ~180BHP, but that only saved a couple of seconds. Sorry, but while my time is at a premium, I'm not so arrogant to claim that saving 2 seconds every time I get up to speed is worth the increase in fuel use, CO2 emissions, particulate generation and noise. Driving fast might be a lot of fun for some - on those rare opportunities you might get the chance - but however you look at it, it's anti-social. As a race, we can quite a selfish bunch, but we don't have to be.

As for speeding, some limits might appear to be questionable, but most are for a reason. Stuff happens. We have deer at work, and the site limit is 15mph. It's not always easy to stick to that on the way out (steep downhill), but I'm one of the few that tries. Despite that, I've had near-misses. They jump out of the foliage straight onto the road with no warning at all, and even at 15mph, it can be hard to avoid them. I've seen the damage they can do at even low speeds - I dread to think how bad it would be at A-road speeds.

If you get caught speeding enough times, your insurance premiums are affected. You might be able to afford that, as can I, but where does your money end up? Ultimately, in the pockets of bankers. The same bankers that inflicted so much damage in 2008, etc. I have no interest in paying them any more than I have to. So I don't speed. Part of the joy of driving for me is making the effort to always do the right thing. Part of that is observing all of the rules, even if I might disagree with some of them. Aside from occasionally poorly-signposted roads, sticking to the limit is easy. And for those who don't drive properly, most modern cars have speed limiters that are easy to use. There's really no excuse. Object to the rules as much as you like, but if you choose to break them, you deserve to be sanctioned in some way. A speed awareness course or a fine is not that bad for a mild transgression, but if you're caught doing 100+MPH, that's not a moment of distraction - that's plain irresponsible. Don't complain about getting in trouble for that - everyone knows the rules.

And that leads me to the important point. Recent posts in this thread - this one included - have expressed strong views about driving. And some have strayed into politics. All that creates bad feeling. I'm judging some of you because of what you've said here, and no-doubt I'll also be judged. That's not a nice place to be. And it's totally against the ethos of this forum.

So now, we no long have to wonder why automotive posts are banned on some other forums - just look at this thread.

I'll leave it open for now - it would be an abuse of my position to close it with no right to reply after expressing my views - but if we keep straying into politics, or continue to express strong views in a way that could cause offence, I'll be left with no option other than to close it.

One thing I must say, is that I've done my best to not get 'political' - however of course this part of the subject has touched on politicians making decisions, only my point is it's either bad or not, it's either a yes or no - rather than lets just take peoples money for it and let them all carry on.

I understand fully that we won't all agree, but one thing I cannot bare to see is the poor being extorted and others happily believing in something where the mission is far from the truth. During a 'cost of living crisis' I just cannot bare to see this happening to struggling families. It doesn't affect me, but it could do, it could have done, it may well do one day. We won't all work and live together by turning a blind eye to extorting the public over something for where there simply isn't the supporting evidence, hence the Mayors office asking people to lie and misleading the London Assembly and where the Mayor used disgusting and disgraceful language about those who wanted to dig further into fact finding and gathering evidence.

But then again, calling people Sun/Mail-reading pub bores isn't critical thinking either is it and is language that if someone else used, would see a thread locked. Actual research has been done into ULEZ and flaws have been found. It's as if people are always wanting the worst to be the truth, rather than hang on a minute, something isn't quite right here.

[Refugee]

There are times when a speed limit is too low.
You can end up with a queue of drivers waiting to enter a low speed limit zone because the cars ahead simply can't get through without exceeding the speed so that the queue gets even longer.
You can see the effect on motorways when there is speed limited roadworks.
All you need to do is to look at traffic reports and then find the cameras over the section before the speed limit starts.
The cameras on tall white poles are on line.
https://www.motorwaycameras.co.uk/

[Pye Man]

A couple of years ago attended the funeral of a friend that was held in a borough just outside of Birmingham but the opposite side from me. The path was once a well-trodden one for me as I once had a girlfriend who lived in the same area and the route consisted of relatively easy suburban roads and A roads.

Remembering the duration of the old journey but that there are more vehicles on the roads today and that I might encounter some roadworks or congestion I allowed myself a generous amount of time. Having not traversed the city for some years what I didn’t bargain for were blanket 20mph speed limits which even extended to major A road routes. I only just made the crem in time. I spent most of the journey in second and third gear yet my modest and humble hack will happily cruise sub 30mph in fifth. I returned home by driving out to the motorway and using the midland links. This meant many more miles but was quicker and probably cost me less in petrol, never mnd being less frustrating. I have to confess that I struggle to understand how engines doing more revolutions and thus burning more fuel for the distance travelled is better for air quality.

[Mark Hennessy]

Busy day today. Just got back from a school event with the kids. We walked...

Sadly, my frustration with how this thread has developed hasn't really abated.

It's one thing to discuss motor vehicles. I quite enjoy that. They are interesting bits of technology.

Where it became a problem for me is when people started bragging about the performance of their machines, and asserting their right to drive at whatever speeds they like, and to hell with the rules and laws. I'm really not comfortable about this. I have explained my personal attitudes to driving and speeding. I don't expect anyone else to agree with that, but was dropping a fairly heavy hint about my unease with those sorts of posts. There are plenty of "Max Power" forums if you want to do that - I don't want it here.

Almost inevitably this gets political. Not good. Again, there are plenty of places to discuss politics. It's actually something I follow extremely closely, so I'm far from ignorant or apolitical, but again, not here. This is a vintage electronics forum.

I'm sorry, but ULEZ is not extortion of poor people. If you care about the plight of poor people - and I don't question your sincerity with that - then there's plenty else that's happened over the last 13 years to get your teeth into. But as stated, all totally off-topic for this forum. Do I regret using the language I did? Perhaps I should, but had there been reasoned, balanced arguments, perhaps supported by references we could all explore, then I'd feel more guilty. But as it is, I'm afraid to say that I was simply responding in kind. Uncharacteristic for me, I admit, but I'm only human and don't have infinite patience at all times. If someone else had used that language, would I have closed the thread? No, not for those words as such, but if they'd created bad feeling, then maybe. People have said much worse on occasion. But if you look at my moderation history, you'll see that I'm incredibly fair and balanced - perhaps too much so - and it's very rare for me to close threads or "pull rank". And when I do, it's always with an explanation, so everyone concerned understands why I've taken the action I have. I don't have to make that effort, and I know it doesn't really placate those who feel wronged, but my record stands.

Jez, again, please stop talking about UKVRRR's approach to running their forum. See Rule 4. Much as we might well see your point, it's entirely their choice.

Again, I'm happy to leave this open and see how it goes. But it's only fair to mention that I'm considering a minor change to the rules to stop this happening again. I guess it'll be along the lines of not allowing discussions about driving that encourages or glorifies breaking the laws of the road. I really don't want to do that, as it would be the first rule change in probably the entire life of the forum, and it does feel like a very specific rule of the sort we've hoped to avoid.

[Kalee20]

The thing is though, speed limits apply at all times of day...

... it's not a very nice feeling to be thinking that if I'd stayed within the limit, that young fawn would still be alive (to say nothing of damage to the car).

I couldn't disagree more strongly. I do not recognise such so called laws.

But you could disagree less strongly, then, maybe, Jez?

Did you not fancy taking some venison home?

I did! But trying to lift a 60kg carcass alone, in the dark, into the boot isn't easy. In the end I dragged it off the road, into a ditch, at least it would be food for other creatures.

Motor cars... for me they're amazing pieces of technology and while I far prefer vehicles of the 1950's up to 1980's owing to their simplicity, the advances in efficiency, fuel economy and emissions reduction facilitated by electronic engine management just wouldn't be possible with a simple carburettor and ignition timing by engine speed and manifold vacuum. But there it stops... I'm no petrolhead, I don't care if someone has a faster car with more power than mine. I also walk (when I have to), cycle (the best personal transport invented to date), and ride (my horse).

[DrStrangelove]

Where it became a problem for me is when people started bragging about the performance of their machines, and asserting their right to drive at whatever speeds they like, and to hell with the rules and laws. I'm really not comfortable about this.

^^^ This.

Shades of "freemen on the land" & "Sovereign citizens" or whatever.

[Jez]

 warning  Sorry but I'm afraid I disagree to varying extents with most of that Mark. Here's my take on things...

I didn't buy the (at the time) worlds fastest motorbike for reasons of economy, safety or being responsible. I do like to leg pull the "I never break the speed limit" and have  "National Trust" , "I slow down for horses" and prob RSGB stickers on the back window of their Honda Accord with a tartan rug over the back seat types! Sorry.

I do see ULEZ as a tax on the poor as  only the poor would be using a car so old as to be non compliant. No doubt with such a small percentage of cars not complying, and most of them only 1000 or 1100cc as the owners can't afford anything else, they make bugger all difference to pollution anyway. They're also the least able to pay fines over ULEZ of course. Ban the "look at the size of my car! I must be really important! And if I crash into you I'll be alright Jack in my urban tank" 6L V8 SUV's! Not the 15 year old 1000cc Fiat Punto old banger that the owner only just manages to keep on the road

Of forums generically... People making stupid and annoying rules should not get away without criticism and a bit of Micky taking for it IMHO. The whole forum shtick seems to try and make it some closed shop so all forum owners can do and say whatever the hell they like in their own little fiefdoms and never have to answer for it, as of course criticism of the rules and of the moderators are never allowed... rather like some totalitarian state....  the closed shop meaning all other forums seem to have a rule about "you can't have a whinge about it here either". So they get away with anything and everything without ever getting even a tongue lashing for it... unless you want to start your own forum just to criticise them! 

Whilst you seem to be the most sane and reasonable of forum owners I've come across so far, as someone who's been almost put out of business, due to forum owners banning me from their sites for telling the truth about audiophoolishness (and refusing to back down when 20 audiophools have a pile on at me), I have a somewhat strained relationship with forums, and particularly "little Hitler" forum owners and mods who seem to get off on wielding their tiny... erm power...  playing silly power games with the lives of people who, if eg into vintage radio, really rely on the forum to chat with other enthusiasts, arrange swaps, hear about radio jumbles etc etc and even to assuage the loneliness many suffer as they get older (I know!). 
Forums can become more important to people, for all sorts of reasons, than is sensible

(Oh and I'm sure many will have had the "pleasure" of a forum owner or mod somewhere on the interweb taking a personal dislike to them and applying the rules rather more harshly towards them than to others.... whilst their pals seem to be able to bend and break rules this way and that without consequence. Anyone recognise that?)

Yeah it's only a place where sad old men discuss even sadder older radios to some people, but it's a way of life to those involved in it (or put car forum, hi fi forum, fishing forum, whatever in place of vintage radio... same difference) and the last thing we need is the biases, favouritism, personal dislike of a member, hobby horses etc of all-too-human forum owners and moderators making it a place where one feels like they are constantly walking on egg shells. Just my ha'porth on the subject, generically of course  ("Putting his foot in it for saying what loads of others are thinking since 1965" TM   )

 over