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Full Version: Where did 625 line television come from?
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London TV Station.                                                                                   
  The three stage divider employed to replace the original five stage divider network.
Circuit diagram dated April 1939.

Geordie McBoyne.
That will teach me to go to the source. My Black Book has exactly the same circuit. I wonder how stable that design was at divide by 8. Doesn't take much to make it divide by 8 or 10.
I meant "I wonder how stable that design was at divide by 9". Can't even type today.
(06-11-2020, 06:47 AM)ppppenguin Wrote: [ -> ]819 was definitely pushing the technology of the time. But it was a plasusible attempt, since the standard allowed headroom for the technology to improve and fully exploit the lines and bandwidth. But it didn't work out in the end. France was left stranded with 819 just as the UK was with 405.

It needed digital transmission, with powerful data compression, to move beyond 625 for everyday use. Yes, there were attempts at 1125 analogue, notably in Japan, but they never gained a critical mass.

At the studio end, I look back on the work I did designing analogue vision mixers and how hard it was to get really good results. I did just one rather simple digital vision mixer and the problems just melted away.

In France 819 lines needed all the VHF bands I & III  along with some clever overlaps to carry just one channel nationwide.

Some of the 1992 Olympic games were shot using 1125 line analogue cameras supplied by Sony.
(07-11-2020, 11:37 PM)Richard_FM Wrote: [ -> ]Some of the 1992 Olympic games were shot using 1125 line analogue cameras supplied by Sony.

Repeated to some extent in London 2012 Olympics where NHK provided 4K cameras at the stadium. I went to a screening at Broadcasting House and the pictures were gorgeous. Staying mainly in wide shot, it was like being in the best seats, but better. Every detail was clear in wide shot. Close ups were used sparingly as they were hardly needed.

In the BECG we have at least one 1125 analogue camera, still using tubes as high resolution solid state sensors were still in their infancy. I have no idea if we'll ever attempt to get it to work again. We also have the OB truck that Sony bought from Thames and converted into a 1125 line analogue demo unit. It was used to make Julia and Julia, not the 2009 version: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julia_and_Julia

I wrote a little about the truck it in a fairly recent BVWS Bulleltin: https://becg.org.uk/2020/03/15/carry-on-trucking/
(05-11-2020, 10:06 AM)ppppenguin Wrote: [ -> ]I think our antipodean friend, Synchrodyne, explored this in some detail a while ago.

That was quite some time back – see:  https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/show...hp?t=83653.

That article at: https://medium.com/@ReflectiveObserver/f...d02007e22a seems to capture the essence of the story.

I am not sure that the reason given for the 7 MHz Western European channel is quite right, though.  Band I easily accommodated three 7 MHz channels, but was slightly short in respect of a fourth channel.  Evidently there some early plans, not realized, to include four channels.  The lowest would have spanned 40 to 47 MHz, the lowest 1 MHz thus out-of-band, but the vision carrier, at 41.25 MHz, would have been in-band.  But if three channels were the desideratum, then three 8 MHz channels could also be accommodated, fully in-band.  See:  https://www.radios-tv.co.uk/community/bl...numbering/, 5th post.

My take on the channel width issue was that there was a cohort in favour of using a 6 MHz channel, following the NTSC precedent.  The Italian experimental 625-line transmitter at Torino, of American origin, had used a 6 MHz channel.  Against that, 7 MHz was a compromise, attributed to Gerber of the CCIR, between those who wanted the 6 MHz channel on one hand and those who wanted the technically better solution of an 8 MHz channel, with 6 MHz vision bandwidth.  The Russians had chosen the latter parameter to provide 16 mm movie quality equivalence.

It is interesting to note that the NTSC 6 MHz channel was not an ab initio choice for the 525/60 system.  Rather it was an imposed initial condition, carried over from the RMA 441/60 system.  Within the available bandwidth, the tradeoff between line-count and horizontal definition was chosen to be somewhat in favour of line count, enough lines to ensure flatness of field according to Fink, who was evidently a major proponent of the 525 number.  Interestingly though, Fink was later on record as saying that the 6 MHz channel was not a good choice; rather 8 MHz would have been better.


Cheers,

Steve
Geordie McBoyne Wrote:London TV Station.                                                                                   
  The three stage divider employed to replace the original five stage divider network.
Circuit diagram dated April 1939.

Geordie McBoyne.

Late to the party on this one and a bit OT, but did they really have to use what I assume are a series of charge pump circuits to do service as a divider at the time? ... Respect!
Frequency division was hard back then. It was possible to build bistable flipflops with valves but it meant a lot of components. Synchronised blocking oscillators were the standard way to do frequency division and that meant small divisors to give reliable operation.
(06-06-2021, 12:40 AM)Synchrodyne Wrote: [ -> ]It is interesting to note that the NTSC 6 MHz channel was not an ab initio choice for the 525/60 system.  Rather it was an imposed initial condition, carried over from the RMA 441/60 system.  Within the available bandwidth, the tradeoff between line-count and horizontal definition was chosen to be somewhat in favour of line count, enough lines to ensure flatness of field according to Fink, who was evidently a major proponent of the 525 number.  Interestingly though, Fink was later on record as saying that the 6 MHz channel was not a good choice; rather 8 MHz would have been better.

That was in Donald Fink’s 1999 paper, “Two NTSCs”.  Here is the pertinent paragraph:

“The RMA Allocations Committee had the burden of setting the width of the television channel. The figure they chose, 6 MHz, was ambitious at the time but it has since turned out to be one of confinement. If they had known what the future had in store they should, in this author's opinion, have opted for an 8-MHz channel. But that is hindsight!”

In the same paper, Fink also said:

“How do the NTSC television standards stand up in present perspective?  One of the best informed modern judgments was issued in 1974 by Raymond Wilmotte, a distinguished consulting engineer commissioned by the Chief Engineer of the FCC to write a survey report  "Technological boundaries of television,"  . Writes Wilmotte:  "One of the principal findings of the (present) study is that in spite of the relatively infant state of the art at the time that the NTSC standards were adopted, these standards have stood the test of time.... With the technological revolution that has taken place since those days, it is indeed remarkable to be able to state today that these standards (monochrome and color) can hardly be faulted."

and:

“On the international scene, the judgment is also largely favorable.  A group of eminent television engineers from many countries, under CCIR auspices, considered what the preferred standards would be, given a free choice.  Their verdict: 600 lines, 60 fields per second, 6-MHz video bandwidth.  The NTSC values are 525 lines, 60 fields per second, 4 MHz.  The match is imperfect, particularly with respect to video bandwidth.  But the verdict for 60 fields, a vote against the 50-field standard (used everywhere in the world except North America, Japan, some Latin American countries, and a few others) is a significant endorsement.”


In the early days, tying the field frequency rate to the utility frequency seemed to be an imperative.  But this requirement fell away by the early 1950s.  For example, in 1953, Japan adopted 525/60 nationwide despite having both 50 and 60 Hz utility grids, quite neatly separated geographically.

Anyway, allowing that in 1944 the need to tie field frequency to utility frequency was more-or-less a given, then one could say that the Russians got it right when it came to optimal exploitation of analogue possibilities.

And perhaps just “how right” the choice was might have been less readily visible had someone (in this case the French) ventured a step or two further out, in fact one might say “a bridge too far”, along the line-count and bandwidth vector.

Against that, one could also say that the position of 625 lines as something of a “goldilocks” system was somewhat marred by the multiplicity of variants.  In approximate chronological order the major variants were:

Russian, 8 MHz channel, 6 MHz vision bandwidth, later known as systems D and K, also Francophone African K1 with 1.25 MHz vestigial sideband.

Latin American, 6 MHz channel, 4 (later 4.2) MHz vision bandwidth, basically 625/50 crammed into an NTSC channel, originally 1949 for the Torino, Italy experimental transmitter, in “production” 1951 in Argentina.  Later known as system N.  It would appear that the main reasons for its choice in the 50 Hz Latin American countries was to allow uniform American-pattern channeling across both the 50 and 60 Hz territories.

Western European, 7 MHz channel, 5 MHz vision bandwidth, Gerber compromise.  Not sure of first experimental use date; promulgated by CCIR in 1950.  Later known as systems B and G, also H with 1.25 MHz vestigial sideband.

Belgian, essentially the CCIR system but with positive vision modulation and AM sound, pre-emphasized, later system C.  Belgium required that its transmitters could handle both 625/50 and 819/50 programme material, with more-or-less instant changeover.  Clearly a modified 819/50 system was required to fit the 7 MHz channel, and whilst this might have been aligned with the CCIR 625/50 system, apparently that would not have been an even-handed approach in respect of the two constituencies involved.  So both systems had to be different to their respective prototypes.

French, 8 MHz channel, 6 MHz vision bandwidth and 1.25 MHz vestigial sideband, positive vision modulation and AM sound, not pre-emphasized, system L.  The latter two parameters were chosen to match the existing 819/50 system so simplify design of dual-standard receivers.  (cf. the Francophone Africa system K1, which did not have the same constraint and so was negative/FM.)

UK & Ireland, 8 MHz channel, 5.5 MHz vision bandwidth and 1.25 MHz vestigial sideband, system I.  This was developed by the UK TAC as its view of the optimal use of an 8 MHz channel.  Hitherto the working assumption was that the UK would use the Russian parameters.

That leaves out minor variants such as B1 and I1.  (L’ or L1 was not a formal CCIR designation.)


Cheers,

Steve
ppppenguin Wrote:Frequency division was hard back then... Synchronised blocking oscillators were the standard way to do frequency division and that meant small divisors to give reliable operation.

So, not charge-pump dividers as Amie had been thinking (which would divide over a wide range of input frequencies), but oscillators synced-up to a subharmonic of incoming frequency (which works only over a narrow range)?

Thus if you want to divide 1kHz by 5, you'd make a blocking oscillator or multivibrator, free-running at 190Hz and then inject the 1kHz pulses. It won't trip after the 4th pulse, but the 5th pulse is so near the avalanche point that it will, thus pulling frequency up to 200Hz...?
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