Veneering Techniques.

[pwdrive]

Alan, your a very naughty boy, my friend is of a similar ilk, his tool box was an opened topped knocked up affair with a peice of dowel as a handle, it was about the same size as a TV field engineers tool box, there was almost B all in it but as a site carpenter he would beat me hands down.
When I was doing kitchen unit worktops I always got the bloke I was working with to do the masons miters on L shaped returns as he had the proper router jig.
An way one day I was on another site with my friend I mentioned, it was the first time me and he had worked together, we had a few masons miters to do on some worktops as we were converting an old building into flats
I said to him where's your jig to which he replied don't use em, he used a bog standard Bahco 224 chippys hand saw and that was it apart from a forstner bit and drill for the clamp recesses underneath the worktop, he taped the cut line with gaffer tape struck a line and off he went sawing, the joint was really something, spot on and dead true, no filler and no black marker pen!

Lawrence.

[Retired]

Hi,

Yes Lawrence these speed clamps are simply brilliant and a pleasure to use as they can rapidly be applied with a lot of pressure one handed; for many years I've used the standard metal screw type "G" cramps but these can be a real pain needing three hands to get the cramps into position whilst holding the work. I bought my first plastic speed clamp from Poundland and was so impressed that I bought more from Aldi; I'll buy more still if I see any on sale.

Many thanks Gary I'm pleased you too are making good progress with your project. Regarding using super glue to attach loose veneer; I'm using this project as a prototype trying techniques and ideas out. The bit of loose veneer would have easily glued back into position using hide glue and normally I would have made up a small quantity of fresh hide glue but in this instance I had the super glue to hand and after watching the demonstration I thought I would try it out. David and I watched the guy selling this super glue apply a very small quantity to two large steel nuts pressing the nuts together by hand for a few seconds then we were amazed when he threw the nuts onto the floor with quite a bit of force and they didn't come apart.

Normally Gary I would never use super glue on a project such as this especially if I was to use stain but as I don't intend to stain or even part with the cabinet once its restored I wanted to test the superglue because I have other ideas in my head where the use of superglue might come in useful. I removed the clamps last night and sure enough the veneer had gone down tight and remains secure so the glue is so far excellent. Using the glue was extremely easy and with the fine nozzle it went where intended and capillary action drew it deep into the gap; I'm confident that the joint will hold indefinitely but I can understand your concern; long term I'll not be parting with this cabinet so if the joint does ever let go whilst in my care it won't be a problem for me to re-make the joint using hide glue. Had the joint been larger I would not have used the super glue because I'm a fan of hide glue which is perfect for hammer veneering. Here is the joint which will look much better once finished.

       
Super glued and clamped. Secured joint.

I think Gary if you was faced with trying to trim the veneer accurately around the openings using a knife; abrasive paper or files you would have had one almighty struggle resulting in lots of frustration. I found it very difficult just trying to remove excess veneer with a very sharp craft knife; this veneer is incredibly brittle and as the knife broke through in places it was grabbed by the veneer with great risk of damaging the veneer. Because the veneer was overhanging a rounded over moulding (quadrant) I could not determine an exact cutting line in order to use a steel straightedge with the craft knife; add to this the glue which had been ejected by using the hammer and which could not be removed whilst remaining wet because of lack of access then it presented me with a huge problem; trying to cut through hide glue which has set is very difficult and a lot of damage could be inflicted to the buried moulding. Because there was no definite edge to the joint where veneer met the moulding trying to simply remove excess veneer using abrasive paper of files would obviously work but how would you obtain a perfect line as I'm sure it would end up quite wavy; I could of course be wrong but these were problems I could foresee whilst inspecting the cabinet.

Whatever method I used to remove this excess veneer together with squeezed out hardened glue was going to be difficult and at all costs having reached this far I wanted to avoid inflicting any damage however slight. You've obviously given this some thought Gary and could see the problems to be overcome hence you also wished to avoid causing damage. These two openings together with their rounded over mouldings gave me a great deal of trouble and trying to plan ahead I decided to cut out the MDF router guides whilst access to the edges of the openings was still available because I simply wouldn't know how to proceed until faced with the actual problem.

I'm still quite a novice using a router Gary but I am getting used to it and it wasn't an easy decision to attack this problem with a high speed router because if something went wrong it was going to go wrong very quickly and really mess the job up but I thought the router if it worked would remove both excess veneer and glue very neatly but a lot of care and patience would be called for.

Had I been making a brand new cabinet from scratch it would have been a great deal easier because I could have very accurately quartered the veneer pattern and glued the veneer down onto a solid substrate then once the glue had set running a router around a jig would have given perfectly neat openings; I'm sure this would have been the method used during manufacture of this cabinet but what escapes me is why the moulding profile used is such a plain quadrant?

All your concerns are valid Gary and thanks for raising them because anyone doing a similar job will have many decisions to make and each decision needs taking seriously. Right from the start I didn't even know if I could successfully veneer this cabinet with Burr Walnut in fact I spent a few days deciding whether or not to make a start on it; only when I could visualize the finished cabinet in my head did the cabinet go onto the bench. Another point you raised Gary regards finishing the moulding around both openings and I'll add the front foot to this. The picture I see of the finished cabinet is decent veneer to both sides with the grain running horizontally and beautiful expensive Burr Walnut veneer to the front and top panels; the mouldings and foot will be sprayed with satin black auto lacquer and to the centre of the top panel I see a fancy veneer fan motif inlay. Yes it's ambitious and perhaps I'm dreaming of doing things beyond my capabilities but this is how I see the finished cabinet.

As to actual finish I don't intend to stain and I'm going to experiment with Blonde de-waxed shellac (French polish). Before starting to apply finish I have some way yet to go so will spend time surfing the web and browsing "You Tube" to see if there is any Burr Walnut finishing information available. Once I have the picture in my head this is what I aim for.

When all is said and done what is involved here are a few materials and time spent. I would urge any novice to have a go because really it is virtually impossible to fail 100%, even if the project ends up in a skip doesn't mean total failure because knowledge and some experience will have been gained and where else could you obtain so much hassle; frustration; headaches; sleepless nights and stress for so little outlay?

I hope I don't come across as an expert because if I was I wouldn't be making so many mistakes so take heart because I'm going through exactly the same problems encountered by any novice to veneering. When I succeed with this cabinet I have lots of other ideas to try out. The ones who don't succeed are the ones who don't try hard enough. One thing I am not scared of is to look absolutely stupid in public; life is too short to be held back by lack of confidence; I fully restored my basket case Ekco TV in front of the world on a forum having never attempted such a job previously and knowing absolutely nothing about the workings of a vintage TV; the only thing in my favour was determination. I would say have a go at a project; make all the silly mistakes; push yourself to try new ideas and techniques but above all don't be afraid of failure.

Kind regards, Col.

[pwdrive]

"Yes Lawrence these speed clamps are simply brilliant and a pleasure to use as they can rapidly be applied with a lot of pressure one handed; for many years I've used the standard metal screw type "G" cramps but these can be a real pain needing three hands to get the cramps into position whilst holding the work. I bought my first plastic speed clamp from Poundland and was so impressed that I bought more from Aldi; I'll buy more still if I see any on sale"

When we were doing green oak framing we used the ones made by Irwin, they were very good and we found them very reliable, they do them up to 36" they were great for temp. drawing joints together while checking everything out on the frames prior to site assembly.

Lawrence.

[Radio Fixer]

All sounds good Colin.
I've always been dubious about putting one glue on top of another. But a common technique, and I have done it too, is to inject PVA, into lifted veneer on old cabinets. Clamp or weight after and it does seem to work OK. So maybe the same is true of the super glues / hide glue combo.

Cheers Gary

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks Gary; I agree it is better to use like with like when it comes to glues but I like to experiment a bit if I think I can get away with it.

I mentioned part of my plan was to add a veneer fan motif to the top panel and I've already made a lot of progress towards achieving this; these motifs are readily available from eBay in assorted sizes but I want to learn how to produce my own from scratch as I think it would be interesting.

   
An interesting project.

I'm also learning how to use CAD both in 2D and 3D and again I'm making progress because I've managed to draw the fan pattern both as a single and in multiples as shown in the pictures. The multiples are drawn to the required size and once printed off they will be cut out and used as templates. I've also got the silver sand ready in the workshop for use in "sand shading" the fan components. This is another technique I've never previously tried but should be interesting. I added extended cutting lines and a border to aid alignment whilst cutting the veneers.

It's not long ago I had great difficulty using CAD but suddenly I'm settling down and making good progress; I always found CAD to be incredibly difficult to learn; it was the need to accurately divide a circle for gear production which made me join my first Internet forum; it's amazing how one thing leads to another. I've included the large single fan drawing in case anyone else would like to have a go because this picture can be used as a base allowing it to be re-sized as needed. I've changed the pattern of the fan slightly and perhaps I can add one of these to my work rather like The Mouse-man adds a mouse to his furniture.

       
Single and multiple CAD drawings.

I've left the cabinet alone today to allow it to settle and dry out completely in the hope that it will behave; next job will be bringing it to the finishing stage which I'm looking forward to. All this time and effort might appear over the top for an old radio cabinet but it's not really the finished cabinet that holds interest for me it is the doing and learning involved as I see this cabinet more of a stepping stone to even better projects. I hope it all works out as planned.

Kind regards, Col.

[pwdrive]

'Nowt to do with veneering but years ago I made a small box out of some ash wood, I intended to paint a flower design on it then varnish and polish it up.
In the end I found some pressed wild flowers and small leaves I put in an old book for pressing that we had done years before, I gave the box a quick coat of varnish and pressed the flowers and leaves into it and let it dry off, I think I gave it around another six coats then polished it up, it looked the real deal.

Lawrence.

[Retired]

Hi,

What a neat idea Lawrence. Really it is very like veneering because the flowers are attached to the surface but in your case with vanish rather than glue.

Bron used to buy dried flowers from garden centers but I always thought them to be dull and lifeless regarding colour; does pressing flowers in a book retain the colours or do the colours return once varnished?

My last big project was to make my new computer desk and I used Formica for the panels; this Formica is stunning resembling burr veneer and unless I tell what it is visitors think it to be the proper thing.

A few years ago I was kindly given as a gift a French radio in need of full restoration; I don't know the make and it's currently stored under the bungalow. I had a quick look when I received it and the cabinet appears to have been covered with printed paper then finish applied? I've tried to find printed paper in a burr pattern on the web without success as this would be another interesting project to tackle; if I do go ahead with this I'll post the details.

Can I be cheeky Lawrence and ask if you still retain the box with the flower decoration as I'm interested in all aspects of surface decoration in fact I'd be happy to welcome more such ideas.

Something different but very interesting to me is stained glass windows and I would love to have a go as I've always fancied fitting some nice stained glass panels to the front door and adjoining framework both at the moment having privacy patterned glass installed. There are so many things I would love to try doing but unfortunately the weather quite literally dampens my enthusiasm and this is why I'm once again restoring a radio cabinet.

I've just done a rapid study in Cryogenics as I've been into the workshop to turn the heat on.

Kind regards, Col.

[pwdrive]

"Can I be cheeky Lawrence and ask if you still retain the box with the flower decoration"

Haven't got a clue where it might be Col, if we still have it it will packed away somewhere.

Lawrence.

[Radio Fixer]

US Philco used psuedo veneer, just printed paper, on some of their low end models.

Stewart Schooley sorted out ways to do it: http://www.philcoradio.com/schooley/index.htm

Nice fella Stewart, had e-mail chats, some years ago, about touching up damage to old radios. Well he was an artist so for him the impossible was possible. He did some superb touch ups over car body filler. Even with his coaching I never got a result that looked as good as his pics.

Gary

[Retired]

Hi,

Many thanks for adding the website link Gary; I've just been having a good look at it and how informative and useful it is. I thought the French radio I have was covered with a paper print so this now confirms such methods were indeed used and now thanks to you I have the information to produce my own prints; how good is this? I'm all for learning new ideas and techniques.

This morning I went into the workshop and did some filling etc on the cabinet then left it for a few hours to let the filler dry. This afternoon I've brought the cabinet to the finishing stages; the filler and cabinet was sanded to 320g using abrasive paper with a backing block to keep everything flat; just using abrasive paper with fingers causes depressions so a backing block is a must.

After careful checking I've just applied a coat of raw linseed oil to bring the colour out in the veneers. I can't do anything else until the oil completely dries. Next job will be to give the cabinet a couple of rubbers of shellac to seal it before touching in the filler with matching colour then the finish can be applied. It's now looking better and my fingers are crossed that it will now behave.

I've been surfing the web and in America a number of guys recommend using 90% or better alcohol for mixing shellac. I visited our local chemist to asked if they stocked pure alcohol but I think they thought I was an idiot asking for this. I've browsed eBay and just bought 5ltr of 99.99% alcohol for next day delivery at £20.50 inc. Hopefully it will arrive tomorrow then I can mix up some shellac and get cracking to finish this cabinet.

The pictures show the cabinet ready for finish and with the linseed oil added but I've still quite a bit of work ahead of me but its looking promising.

Kind regards, Col.