Veneering Techniques.

[Retired]

Hi,

Thank you Tony for adding such kind comments regarding my work. At times I thought this job was getting away from me and on a number of occasions it looked hopeless and irretrievable but the harder it became the more I dug in.

The veneering was definitely the hardest part of this restoration but with my newly gained experience Burr Walnut now holds no fear for me. I found that soaking the Burr with water both sides then hot ironing not only flattened the burr but rendered it pliable whereas this Burr whilst dry was extremely fragile and brittle.

Cutting the Burr to slightly over-size whilst the Burr is wet and ironed means it can be laid once using hot hide glue and hammer; tape the joints and if there is a possibility of the edges of the Burr lifting as it dries out prevent this by either mechanically clamping or taping then allow the cabinet to dry out slowly before removing clamps/tape. Trying to remove the dry tape by scraping is a real pain but simply wetting the tape quickly releases it without effort; it doesn't require a good soaking so any water applied will quickly dry.

Usually when I'm French polishing (Shellac) I go for the very high gloss (mirror) finish after all this is what is associated with French polish but I hope the finish on this Barker demonstrates that French polish can be finished to any degree of shine from dead Matt to gloss. To achieve the gloss finish using French polish is time consuming but the finish (satin) on this Barker was rapid; all I did was to apply a good thickness of French polish using a fan brush then I flatted using 1000g abrasive paper lubricated with Talcum Powder; give it a good dusting off then apply liquid paraffin with a cloth and finally buff to reveal a truly wonderful finish in keeping with a cabinet of this age. It really is that simple.

Had the weather been decent I could have completed this restoration in a fraction of the time but the weather tries to ruin my enjoyment; today has been dense cold fog and at 3.30pm the sun finally broke through but I still cannot see the other side of the valley as I type because the fog is lingering. The workshop to the rear of the bungalow is perishingly cold but tomorrow I'll turn the heating on for a session and blow the weather.

I would encourage anyone to have a go at producing this finish as it is so easy but looks expensive.

Kind regards, Col.

[camallison]

Hi,

Many thanks Gary; I doubt I'll be parting with this Barker now it's looking so much better.

I do indeed have mechanical talents Gary being a mechanical engineer and the most useful talent I possess is being able to use both hands in harmony with my head. As an apprentice mechanical engineer it was beaten into me to think for myself after all I was being trained to be an engineer and not a "fitter"; this has remained with me for the last 50 years.

Hopefully what I've demonstrated with this Barker restoration and indeed with my other threads is that even with lack of skill on a particular subject determination will win through in the end. Even with my mechanical skills Gary I fell into a number of black holes during this restoration that any novice would fall into; I'm used to solving problems so I simply treat a problem as a challenge rather than an annoyance. I didn't know the veneer was going to grow so much in size once wetted; I didn't know I would suffer so much trouble due to the two front openings and what a blunder to end up with the electric iron welded to the front of the cabinet; this restoration has been problem after problem turning me back into a novice once again as I was on a very steep learning curve.

I have plenty of skills and experience to draw upon if I'm metal working but any project involving timber is totally different and the skills are not universally transferable; metal doesn't have a grain like timber and it is very predictable; metal cuts much more cleanly without lots of splintering or tear out; if metal is heated to cherry red it can be easily formed using a hammer and retains its new shape. I do have lots of hands on using power tools and machinery feeling very much at home with both but this Burr Walnut was a real challenge behaving most strangely; it grew a great deal when wetted but then shrank as it dried; pre-cutting then wetting made it no longer fit; it curled and buckled as it dried in fact it was a pain to work with; I was only experiencing what any novice will experience for the first time whilst trying to lay this Burr.

I couldn't gain any knowledge up front whilst browsing the Internet or "You tube" so the only way to gain knowledge was to have a go. I do have a lot of confidence in my abilities and I'm a quick learner. I wouldn't expect any novice to jump straight in and try laying Burr veneer without some practice of laying better behaved veneer but the basic skills to veneering are quickly grasped with a little practice. Plain veneer is cheap enough to practice with; hide glue is also cheap and the tools/equipment won't break the bank.

I've done my best to explain what I went through during this project and a novice to using Burr veneer now has the benefit of my experience up front so knows what to expect and more importantly how to avoid the mistakes I made. I don't think you will have deterred anyone from having a go Gary but I do agree veneering is very difficult at first but then so is riding a cycle.

Thank you Colin for your kind words. I'm pleased another wood worker has joined us and hopefully you will be posting some of your work? I too enjoy working with solid timber and have made a lot of free standing and fitted furniture saving us a fortune over the years. Veneering though is a lot different but it is also very useful in that very expensive decorative timbers can be cut into veneer and applied to a cheap substrate such as MDF resulting in a stable piece of furniture or cabinet; to use such decorative timber in the solid would be hugely expensive and the furniture or cabinet would most likely be very unstable. I used to regard veneered items as cheap but I'm learning better as I dig deeper into veneering.

I think once you have a go at veneering Colin you will soon pick up the techniques involved and it will open up a whole new world to you as it has done to me. Making furniture from reclaimed oak pews will be most satisfying for you and the oak will be very stable; what finish do you apply to the oak Colin because oak is not an easy timber to finish due to its very open grain? Last year I used new American white oak as a frame for my computer desk and as an experiment I used Formica for the panels; this sounds like a ghastly combination especially for a show piece but it worked out very well indeed and the desk is a joy to own. Have you any pictures of your work Colin because I feel it important to share this kind of information before all the skills are lost.

http://golbornevintageradio.org/forum/sh...p?tid=2204

I've rambled enough but believe me when I say the hardest part in veneering is making a start; this Barker was a downright pain to veneer but in spite of my ignorance it didn't beat me.

Kind regards, Col.

I missed this reply - sorry Col. My finishes for reclaimed oak are many and varied, but covered by .... Rustin's Danish oil and sand with a fine grit paper in between coats and use a tack rag after each sand and before the coat of oil. Sometimes, where maybe grubby hands will be high-traffic, then Osmo door-oil.

I mostly wander around some of the high-end furniture emporia, or sale rooms and take a host of photos of things I would like to make. My latest ("copy") is shown in the attached photo. It took around 6 months in the planning, drawing, making up in scrap pine first, and then going for broke with reclaimed oak. My daughter claimed the prototype pine unit and has done a superb job of finishing it with her own choice of stain and polyurethane varnish.

The photo is of the completed oak unit.

Colin

PS - I am currently modifying some Ikea floor-to-ceiling fitted wardrobes to use as storage in the hobby room. I might try veneering the doors as they are too dark for my taste - maybe a birch veneer if I can source it.

[Retired]

Hi,

No problem at all Colin; I miss lots of posts due to time limitations; the hours are shorter for some reason whilst I'm on the computer.

Your oak drawer unit looks superb; very well done it's now a nice family heirloom. I too enjoy working with solid timber whether hard or softwood. I've never had any objection to using Danish oil other than I would never use it on a vintage radio/TV cabinet; I also believe it is up to the owner of an item as to what finish to apply as we are all different and have our own preferences; your oak unit would look beautiful in any setting Colin. One advantage of using re-claimed timber is that it should be very stable; I bet you enjoyed designing and making this unit and hopefully it will encourage others to have a go.

Regarding your prototype unit in pine I think polyurethane varnish chosen and applied by your daughter to be an excellent finish; I used polyurethane as a finish on my new computer desk as polyurethane takes a lot of beating in a high use area. I dislike the coloured varnishes preferring to stain then apply clear varnish; I find the coloured vanish tends to show tide marks. Varnish is actually a very good finish for radio cabinets.

Birch veneer would be a good choice Colin if you decide to have a go at veneering your Ikea ward-robes but if you have never tried applying veneer before please try veneering something smaller just to gain a bit of practice. I've just had a quick look on eBay for Birch veneer but can only see Masur Birch on offer and this is more expensive because it is figured; I find it pays to spend time looking at various veneers because some are much cheaper than others. Oak is readily available in large sizes and this too is light in colour if left natural and on a flat surface should be reasonably easy to lay; Maple is also light coloured. what adhesive would you use Colin?

Please have a look at the following website as it gives a good idea of veneers available; click on the images for a bigger picture

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=wood+veneer+types&hl=en&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=_tk5UfWfGvPU4QTTtYHADA&ved=0CEoQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=979#imgrc=RcD6rcWu6ZGSUM%3A%3BjkqQRV2aEGVS8M%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fmontezumaproperties.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2012%252F11%252Fwood-door-types.jpeg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fmontezumaproperties.com%252Fprofessionals%252Fhouse-doors-doors-for-your-home%252F%3B582%3B497

Keep up the good work Colin and please keep sharing your stories because many members are proficient with the electrical side of restoring a vintage radio but shy away from tackling a woody cabinet; hopefully by seeing such excellent work as yours it might encourage them to have a go?

Kind regards, Col.

[camallison]

Thanks Col - I am researching adhesives - anything you would recommend?

As you suggest, I am going to try veneering a few old chests and/or cupboards first and make any mistakes on them.

Colin

PS - the unit I showed is coffee table height and we use it as such. The drawers hold DVDs and Videos.

[Retired]

Hi,

Your drawer unit whilst looking wonderful is also highly usable Colin and it will give you much pleasure every day just to see it. A job to be proud of and no doubt a talking point when visitors call?

Regarding veneer adhesives Colin; this is actually a difficult question to answer because there are so many variables; size of panel being veneered; type of veneer and adhesive choice; there are many different types of adhesive in fact the choice is bewildering to say the least.

Some veneers remain docile and flat but others such as Burrs want to walk out of the workshop unaided once wetted. Veneer such as Sapele is very easy to lay and almost any adhesive could be successfully used. However veneers which buckle easily having irregular grain or Burr/burl can and do cause a lot of frustration to a novice so I include myself in this category.

I like using hot hide glue because it is cheap and has an envious track record for reliability spanning centuries as long as the joint is kept dry. Hide glue takes stain; has excellent initial tack and if things go wrong a soaking with water and going over with a hot iron will release the veneer as I've demonstrated during my Barker veneering job. Using hide glue though is not easy for a novice; the glue must be heated in a double glue pot and must not be over-heated otherwise it will be considerably weakened; hide glue gels very quickly but there is no reason to panic; apply a generous coat of hide glue using a brush and even if it does gel whilst laying veneer; wet the veneer and run the hot iron over; it works a treat. When I first attempted using hide glue I was in a panic trying to do everything at once but after a little practice I found I could in fact relax although I don't recommend letting the veneer dry out once lay up has started.

On flat panels veneer joints are dead easy to accurately cut if using hide glue; lay the first piece of veneer normally then overlap the adjoining veneer; lay this adjoining veneer as normal up to the joint but then take a straightedge and sharp craft/utility knife; run the knife against the straightedge a number of times and cut right through both layers of veneer; lay down the knife remove the straightedge; now remove the top outer waste veneer; open the joint slightly and remove the trapped inner waste veneer; apply heat if needed then hammer the joint home and tape the joint.

Tools and equipment required are few and inexpensive apart from buying the double glue pot but even these old cast iron glue pots can be bought through eBay where I bought mine for £20. The veneering hammer is home made the only cost incurred being for a short length of 1/8" thick brass strip. Hide/pearl glue is readily and cheaply available and in pearl form has an indefinite shelf life. Clean cloths/rags can be cast off clothing or even bedding costing nothing; a standard utility knife is very cheap to buy but I would be surprised if anyone doesn't already own a couple of these but blades need to be sharp. A wooden straightedge can be made to suit the job in hand; a bucket and warm water won't break the bank neither will buying a brand new cheap electric iron; my iron cost about £5 years ago from Argos. A cheap paintbrush will spread the hide glue.

The downside of using hide glue is that it is very messy and can prove highly frustrating at first but a little practice goes a long way. Hide glue is my first choice and I bought my last supply from John Penny finding it to be top quality;

http://www.jpennyltd.co.uk/shopping/pgm-....php?id=62

Contact/impact adhesive to me is is dire stuff; I've watched many American videos showing the lay up of long work tops with plastic laminate; all these videos show a roller being used to apply the contact adhesive and the contact adhesive goes on so easily; for me however I hated the process which I tried whilst laying laminate on my new computer desk; the Evo Stik impact adhesive I bought simply drove me nuts; it refused to be applied by roller; it refused to be applied by brush and I eventually resorted to using the small serrated plastic spreader supplied with the adhesive; I succeeded in the end but it's a job I don't ever wish to attempt again; next time I'll do a lot of research because I feel I was using the wrong adhesive? Evo Stik is also highly expensive; it is harmful to health and if fumes are allowed to build it could cause an explosion.

http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/displayProduct...ku=1736293&CMP=e-2072-00001000&gross_price=true&mckv=YKMwxwd8|pcrid|14164337469|plid|{placement}

PVA can be successfully used in fact it is similar to hide glue in that heat melts it; a good coating of PVA is applied to both the substrate and underside of the veneer but it is purposely allowed to dry; the two are then aligned and a hot iron applied melting the PVA allowing a powerful bond to be created; I've never tried this method but Joe did a simple experiment in an earlier post and declared it a success.

In yet another post Epoxy has been successfully used; I think it possible that Epoxy would be the most expensive of adhesives but for smaller jobs it works; Epoxy is another adhesive I've never tried when it comes to veneering.

The choice of adhesives is staggering and enough to put a novice to veneering off for life but for jobs the size of radio cabinets I recommend getting used to hot hide glue; the learning curve is steep but once the basics are grasped hide glue is wonderful stuff.

I'm sure there will be masses of information on the web regarding adhesives but for a novice it can be a minefield.

Perhaps a thread on adhesives would be useful then everyone could chip in as we all have our preferences and can share our experiences?

Kind regards, Col.

[Radio Fixer]

Nice draw unit Colin 2, very professional and a pleasing non-boxy design made just by shaping the legs.

Colin1 (Retired) would hide glue still be good for large area veneering? Would you be able to heat enough and get it on there in time?

Maybe PVA would be a better bet?

What are the IKEA doors made of Colin1? My guess is chipboard covered with melamine. So I reckon you would have to remove that and then veneer both sides.

Have you considered graining them? My artistic wife did that for two kitchen doors . She bought a kit and it worked very well. The doors, like yours were dark and so they were given a much lighter paint coat before the grain finish. Thats some years ago and they have lasted well with just a little shine added to the almost matt finish in areas where the hands go.

Gary

[camallison]

Thanks! Such a lot to take in.

The doors (5 off) are all 230x50 in size and already veneered. My thoughts did touch on using PVA exactly as you suggest - let it dry on both parts and then iron into place. I already have an old electric iron from T-shirt printing days. I will be applying veneer on top of existing veneer - a new experience.

What I think I shall do is to buy a small lot of the veneer I want, and then "play" at putting it on old Ikea unit doors I have in the woodworking shop. They make good piece part sources for jigs and the like, being very stable. Damaged doors are always available in their "surplus" area and VERY cheap!

I will report back as things progress. It is quite damp here at the moment and heavy rain followed by light snow is forecast for the next 4 to 5 days. So, I doubt I will be out in the workshop doing anything woodwork-like. Might just set something from offcuts up in the kitchen and, since it is PVA (no smell), then I can try a few goes.

That's this weekend sorted then! It will make a change from replacing AF117s that won't de-whisker! Today, I finished sorting a Roberts R900 - a much simpler job since it is all ICs! See attached.

Colin

[camallison]

Nice draw unit Colin 2, very professional and a pleasing non-boxy design made just by shaping the legs.

Colin1 (Retired) would hide glue still be good for large area veneering? Would you be able to heat enough and get it on there in time?

Maybe PVA would be a better bet?

What are the IKEA doors made of Colin1? My guess is chipboard covered with melamine. So I reckon you would have to remove that and then veneer both sides.

Have you considered graining them? My artistic wife did that for two kitchen doors . She bought a kit and it worked very well. The doors, like yours were dark and so they were given a much lighter paint coat before the grain finish. Thats some years ago and they have lasted well with just a little shine added to the almost matt finish in areas where the hands go.

Gary

The doors are currently veneered chipboard, so I am going to try overlaying the new veneer. Ikea do 3 sorts of doors, melamine, painted, and veneered.

Colin

[AlanBeckett]

IKEA used to do straightforward Pine - Leksvik - but most of it has been discontinued.

Alan

[Yorkie]

IKEA used to do straightforward Pine - Leksvik - but most of it has been discontinued.

Alan

I don’t know if forum peeps are aware that the names of Ikea products have caused huge fallout between IKEA and the Danes. Apparently IKEA doormats and floorcovering are given Danish names and the Danes have inferred from this that IKEA is inviting its customers to ‘walk all over the Danes’. (Or so it is alleged). Maybe it was a slow news day when this was written:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...92774.html