Veneering Techniques.

[Tedzed1]

Hmmm, I wonder what the Swedish think about this one then:

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/60159520/

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks for asking Gary and a very good question as to veneering such large doors using hot hide glue; yes I believe it could be done but I would highly recommend getting used to the technique of hammer veneering first on smaller panels. As these doors are already veneered would it be possible to completely strip the original finish using chemical stripper then bleach the veneer to lighten the colour?

I can see two major problems up front in trying to veneer these doors over the original veneer; firstly it isn't wise to lay one veneer on top of another veneer with the grain running in the same direction as this can cause cracks at a later date when everything dries out. secondly a lot of space will be required.

Working time using hot hide glue isn't a problem Gary in fact it can be carried out very slowly; even if hide glue dries out during lay up it can quickly be softened at any time with the application of a wet rag and hot iron; when I did my first hide glue veneering job I was working in a state of panic trying to get the veneer down before the glue gelled; now I take my time but even doors of his size should be easy enough to veneer using the hammer method; as I say Gary I've never tried the PVA method but it's likely this too would work.

Many years ago Gary I wood grained the bow window frame and wood surround in our first house and it actually looked good I used Scumble. Here's a modern version which is very interesting with a lovely finished effect;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAiv9S4w2Po

Obviously this is not veneering but might appeal to Colin as it will work out much cheaper than veneering this size of door.

As you are interested in having a go at veneering Colin then perhaps it would help if you had something in mind you wish to veneer once you've had a bit of practice then work towards this? Just veneering a set of large doors for the practice will prove costly?

Once the basic technique is grasped then larger veneering jobs should be quite easy and this leads to trying other techniques such as cross banding and stringing going on to inlays. I'm currently interested in inlay motifs but as the weather is so dire I simply don't feel like going into the workshop.

The world of finishes is huge and a subject in its own right.

Kind regards, Col.

[camallison]

Yes, I certainly will do lots of practice pieces first - I'm in no rush and can live with the dark veneer meanwhile. I hadn't thought of scumbling - my mum used to do it a lot on old furniture and taught me too. That was when I was a nipper and so again I would need a few refresher jobs first.

As for space, the woodworking shop has a clear area of 22ft by 9 ft, with benches and machinery taking up the rest of the edge space. Some people call them a garage, but none of my cars have ever resided in such. I have always used them as a workshop. Since we only moved house 18 months back and downsized at the same time, the workshop/garage is full of furniture and other things that wouldn't fit in the bungalow. After the next car boot sale or two, when I have rid of most of it, maybe I will have a good workshop space again.

If I quickly fill the space with work, then Wing Commander SWMBO won't try to fill it with non-work-in-progress again.

Colin

PS - the current finish on the doors is a very light matt varnish - so light that finger marks are finding their way into the grain and staying.

[pwdrive]

Solid wood (not strip wood) softwood doors are a pain unless they are expensive ones, they go all over the place if you have centrall heating or constantly changing humidity levels.
A pressed hardboard panel door is better and lighter, the doors made from finger jointed stripwood are more stable than a solid one, I have these in our house, all half glazed, still straight with no warping. or swelling, light stained and just two thin coats of acrylic varnish to seal them, a slight rub down then wax polish, come up good evry time.

Lawrence.

[pwdrive]

Nice garage space Colin, I built a combine garage and log shed last year, can't move around in there now, the junk seems to have crept, I guess it's part of the course.

Good luck with it all.

lawrence.

[camallison]

Solid wood (not strip wood) softwood doors are a pain unless they are expensive ones, they go all over the place if you have centrall heating or constantly changing humidity levels.
A pressed hardboard panel door is better and lighter, the doors made from finger jointed stripwood are more stable than a solid one, I have these in our house, all half glazed, still straight with no warping. or swelling, light stained and just two thin coats of acrylic varnish to seal them, a slight rub down then wax polish, come up good evry time.

Lawrence.

These doors are certainly a high density chipboard (ie, not MFI low density), edged and veneered. As such, they are dimensionally very stable.

When I build the solid oak furniture, I take account of grain and grain curve as I assemble large pieces (say, for table tops). I then put on ends with slotted pegging to take account of any movement. By using pews that are 150+ years old, I can find stable planks up to 50cm wide and as long as 5m occasionally. I don't waste them by cutting or slitting them down. Those big pieces are used to their full potential in table or sideboard tops.

Over the decades, I have followed tips given to me by my gradfather on how to build furniture with inbuilt stability. I topped this off by diligently following Norm's New Yankee Workshop episodes - I taped them all and now have transferred them onto DVD. He has many tips and ideas apart from just building pieces of furniture. Before you all rush, I won't copy those DVDs for others as they are still copyright (which I respect) and mine are purely an archive for my own personal use.

Thank you all for the responses so far - maybe we should get back to Col's wonderful veneering of cabinets.

Colin

[Retired]

Hi,

Thanks Colin; although this is a thread about veneering it's very interesting to wander into other aspects of woodworking and finishing which is allowed on this forum and so much the better for it.

Over the years I've taken a lot of interest in woodworking and finishing but whatever I've done I've always enjoyed it; buying raw materials and turning these materials into something useful is always worth the effort and it's possible with a little practice to turn out an item that is better than a factory produced item for a lot less cost; the satisfaction gained though is immense and always gives me such a buzz; I'm sure you will feel exactly the same Colin when you've taken a lot of trouble and spent a lot of time to make one of your solid oak pieces of furniture?

You've obviously gone into learning proper construction techniques Colin regarding wood movement whilst working with solid wood; I noticed you had used "Bread board ends" on your delightful drawer unit but I didn't comment because many home woodworkers are unaware that these ends need to "float", you've got it right Colin by allowing movement whilst installing the wooden pegs; these pegs are made a tight fit on the outer part of the joints but as you say Colin the inner-part of the joint has slots where these pegs pass through; the slots allow for natural timber movement. Here is an interesting video showing the construction of a solid walnut table using bread boards across the ends of the top; the walnut being used responds very well to hand work cutting and planing very cleanly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Z1WQ46Dy8

This video is excellent as it demonstrates two ways of installing wooden pegs (pins). For leg to frame joints draw pegs are used; the peg hole in the tenon is slightly off-set towards the tenon shoulder so when the peg is knocked home it closes the joint very tightly. The pegs locating the bread board however allow the tenon to float; same kind of peg but two very different installations.

Veneering has both good and bad points. Good points are board materials can be used as a substrate the best of these being MDF (Medium density fibreboard);

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-density_fibreboard

MDF is very stable and available in very large sheets commonly 8' x 4' but I believe 10' x 5' can be obtained. MDF is dimensionally very stable as long as it remains dry; it is very easy to machine but tipped tooling is needed as it quickly blunts standard tooling including HSS (High speed steel); try drilling a lot of holes using a standard HSS drill bit?

As with all panels MDF will need a veneer (balancing) adding to the back face but this can be a cheaper backing veneer; if a backing veneer is not added then there is a great possibility that the newly veneered panel will distort as the veneer glue dries out.

Veneering allows beautiful patterned timbers to be used such as Burrs; Curls; these timbers used as solid wood would be most unstable and prone to weakness but as veneer the wild grain patterns can be fully exploited as shown in this Barker cabinet project. If such timbers could be used in the solid they would prove highly expensive but in veneer form they can be used in a home workshop without breaking the bank; the MDF substrate is cheap.

The bad point regarding veneering is that just mentioning veneering is enough to scare the heck out of the average woodworker; the learning curve in laying veneer is very steep because to a novice it appears everything has to be done so rapidly; I felt this most acutely when I attempted my first veneering job thinking I had to complete the job before the hide glue gelled and believe me I was near panic at the rate I worked; my first veneering project was a console radio cabinet top panel and it was a success but my nerves took a beating. However with a little practice and hopefully after reading my extensive notes it will be realized that if using hot hide glue veneering can be a very laid back process with nothing to fear even if the hide glue gels before the veneer is laid it simply does not matter so no need at all for panic.

Unless training can be obtained a novice is very much alone when it comes to veneering so the only way is to get stuck in and to make every mistake possible resulting in much frustration and steam coming from ears; I've been through it but as I'm too stupid to ever quit I eventually succeeded and since my first veneering job I've gained more confidence and experience; it might appear that I'm an expert but far from it; my veneering projects have been few and far between but I have made most of the mistakes so I'm able to share my knowledge thus far; I'm still making mistakes as demonstrated during this Barker veneering job when at times it went horribly wrong; when things go so wrong many will give up and never attempt veneering again but I would urge a novice to learn from problems and mistakes and rather than become annoyed accept all such set backs as a challenge; given Colin's excellent work as shown in his lovely solid oak drawer unit I just know Colin will take to veneering and after a few silly initial mistakes will quickly grasp the technique hopefully to move on to more complicated projects posting these in due course?

No one showed me how to veneer or French polish and I started from scratch; at that time "You Tube" or the Internet didn't cover these two subjects as they do now; there are free videos these days showing hands on and I recommend these to a novice as it is much easier watching a technique than it is describing the technique in text.

I well remember my first efforts in that it wasn't the actual hands on that caused me so many initial problems it was obtaining materials? I have many books on all aspects of woodworking and I knew what I wanted but everything proved such a struggle. I had read that a traditional French polishing rubber consists of two parts; the outer cloth and the inner wadding? What could be easier than obtaining both these after all I had lots of cloth kicking around so all I needed was the wadding; ordinary cotton wool is no good because it simply compresses into a solid mass but what was this "Skin Wadding"; I searched high and low for this wasting a lot of time; I read through phone books and Yellow Pages together with the Thompson Local but Skin Wadding evaded me; I didn't even now what it looked like and if I could actually find some of this rare material could I afford to buy it?

Eventually I phoned an upholsterer living about 8 miles away and Bron accompanied me to visit him; this guy was very helpful; he had unfortunately fallen ill but but he had a bit of Skin Wadding which he very kindly gave me to experiment with and he also explained this Skin Wadding was being phased out being replaced by man made material?

I tracked down some shellac and after what seemed like a lifetime I could start to learn French Polishing.

I am happy to pass on two suppliers of Skin Wadding; Shellac and Hide Glue these being;

http://www.restoration-materials.co.uk/w...fo.php?p=0&search=wadding

http://www.jpennyltd.co.uk/Sitemap.php

When I visit Restoration Materials in Bury I'm spoiled for choice as just about every old fashioned finishing material is stocked and I always leave much lighter in the pocket. I also buy on-line from John Penny buying my last lot of hide (Pearl) glue from them and this hide glue really is good whilst being reasonably priced.

I still haven't found a local source for veneer so resort to buying through eBay where it really does pay to spend time browsing because prices vary a great deal; I bought the Burr Walnut for this Barker through eBay and it is lovely stuff.

A novice to either French polishing or veneering has access to a great deal of information whilst reading my assorted threads; not only showing hands on each stage during a project but access to the many problems and solutions together with material suppliers; I had non of this to help me so although I ramble on for England after reading my stories a novice should be well informed as to what to expect. There are usually many ways to do the same job all I write about is what has worked for me whether it be the correct way or not; with this amount of information available is French polishing or veneering really so difficult to master? No pressure Colin but I will be most interested and very much obliged if you would add your story if you do decide to have a go at either French polishing or veneering; both these techniques are dying out so I'm doing my best to encourage others to have a go; the costs involved are quite small but the rewards immense.

I'm looking forward to our two day long summer when we have threats of hose pipe bans and standpipes allowing me to visit our garage without me getting a soaking or being wrapped up like an Eskimo; today is normal; cold; wet and dismal.

Kind regards, Col.

[camallison]

Thanks Col - I will certainly add to the thread as I learn by my mistakes. We don't ramble on, but we pay attention to the accuracy and completeness of our techniques. Reading your various postings, I am surprised you aren't employed as a technical author.

I have been looking online for veneer and have found Vale Veneers with many types of veneer. How do their prices compare? http://www.woodveneeruk.co.uk

I have found another picture of the table/drawer unit not long after it was finished, but long enough for the grandkids to pile stuff on it when they were staying with us. See attached.

Colin

[Retired]

Hi,

Thank you Colin for your kind comments it's nice to be appreciated and even if only one person takes up French polishing or veneering after reading my stories then I will be happy.

So many of the old skills are being allowed to die out which is such a shame; many still practice these skills but compared to the world population in fact these are few?

For a novice to French polishing or veneering or in fact new to a number of such techniques now is a good time to have a go; lots of information and videos are freely available on the web all that is needed is a bit of determination; at basic level equipment and materials are cheap enough so mistakes won't bankrupt anyone but the enjoyment in learning and succeeding really is worth all the effort involved; I've come very near to failure with many of my projects and right at the lowest point when all hope was lost something suddenly goes right and from then on each of my projects have shaken hands with me allowing completion without further trouble. Low points are indeed low points and here is where most is learnt; it's too easy to quit and walk away when things go wrong so if something is going wrong whilst trying one way think about it and try another approach; when things get so bad it's very easy to forget that the materials are only fighting because you are doing something wrong; the materials will talk to you if you stand back and listen to them?

Veneer isn't alive nor does it behave strangely because it doesn't like you; it responds to how it is being treated just as we do; when veneer is produced lots of stresses are released; just as in you or I these stresses are different to veneer as they are to humans; some veneers are less troubled such as Sapele which is quite docile but others such as Burrs are very upset by these stresses and respond by showing it as they curl and buckle. Sapele veneer is as I say very well behaved but try applying hot hide glue to one side only without wetting the other side and even Sapele will complain; it's not the veneer at fault if we don't take the time or trouble to understand what it is trying to tell us.

French polishing is just the same; it needs a bit of understanding before it will become your friend; work with it and get to know it; too thick it won't feel right too thin it won't cover well and be prone to runs; it has a shelf life and this isn't three score years and ten but if the shellac is purchased in flake then it can be stored for a very long period of time without deteriorating. Whilst applying shellac it doesn't like being played with; by brush it wants slapping on and leaving alone; trying to brush it out like paint will only rough it up and make a mess; applying by rubber it will tell you if you are doing it wrong; if the rubber is over-charged it will leave tramlines on the surface and if the rubber is worked too much on one surface it's actually possible to remove previous layers or the rubber will stick ripping up the previous layers; it's all about taking notice and responding accordingly; I don't think there is any black magic involved it's simply called a learning curve.

Both French polishing and Veneering will kick up one heck of a fight to a novice who in turn fights back so starts the conflict; learn to listen what these materials are telling you and don't fight but settle back and enjoy the process; it gets a lot easier with practice but practice only comes if you stick with it. Nothing at all will happen if you don't try.

One of my favourite woodworking books is "The fine art of cabinetmaking" by the author James Krenov. I must have owned this book for the best part of twenty years after buying it through a book society which I joined allowing me to purchase books at discounted prices. This book is unlike any of my other woodworking books; I expected it to cover hands on woodworking giving finished projects but instead it gave me an insight into another world and not only related to woodworking. James goes into "why" rather than "How" and what a tremendous difference between these two simple words. After reading the book I started to understand what James was explaining; anyone can follow instructions and even complete complicated projects without even having basic skills but James goes into the why; rather than treat projects as simply projects with a start and and end if we put our heart and soul into a project and understand the materials and techniques used then we get into a whole new world no longer behaving like a robot.

If a project is going wrong then don't fight and compromise; try to understand why; it's no good trying to force a project right because it will only become worse; we take on these projects for pleasure and I confess at times I could scream at mine but when it comes down to it if things are going badly who is to blame? The materials are only responding to me and if they are not responding as expected then I am am doing something wrong; it's very important to get this idea across.

I too have very much enjoyed watching Norm on The New Yankee Workshop Colin; he is a favourite; very easy to follow and understand whilst demonstrating many techniques; like me Norm appears to be a tool junkie and certainly loves his circular saw and router. Bron has watched many episodes with me and another lesser known program involving Norm is "This old house". The early series of "This old house" saw Norm Abram paired with Bob Villa but eventually Bob Villa fell out with the TV company I believe due to advertising; Norm never pushed products but Bob fell foul of this so was replaced;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0S6cJVVtpI

For those unfamiliar with The New Yankee Workshop here is Norm in action;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJjrB4SvMWg

Isn't it a wonderful feeling Colin to make something so nice as your drawer unit and to see it used every day?

I put the heating on in the workshop about an hour ago so I'd better wander in and tinker around for a while.

Kind regards, Col.

[camallison]

Nice draw unit Colin 2, very professional and a pleasing non-boxy design made just by shaping the legs.

Colin1 (Retired) would hide glue still be good for large area veneering? Would you be able to heat enough and get it on there in time?

Maybe PVA would be a better bet?

What are the IKEA doors made of Colin1? My guess is chipboard covered with melamine. So I reckon you would have to remove that and then veneer both sides.

Have you considered graining them? My artistic wife did that for two kitchen doors . She bought a kit and it worked very well. The doors, like yours were dark and so they were given a much lighter paint coat before the grain finish. Thats some years ago and they have lasted well with just a little shine added to the almost matt finish in areas where the hands go.

Gary

Thank you Gary. Let me tell you the secret on the legs on the table/drawers. I didn't have any stock big enough in the square to make those legs. So, I cunningly made them in an "L" section - easier to cut the taper too. The "open" part of the "L" was infilled with pieces behind where you see it as a leg. Higher up, it is just part of the framing. Judicious use of the planer/thicknesser and careful (ie, millimeter) sizing meant that to the untrained eye they are solid. Once the Danish oil, filler and sanding work had been done, the join is almost impossible to see. I took the attached photo ( a little blurred I know) of the back of one of the legs when on the ground, before putting the infill on.

Every piece has a secret that the craftsman won't tell you about!

Colin