09-03-2013, 12:02 PM
Hi,
Thanks Colin; although this is a thread about veneering it's very interesting to wander into other aspects of woodworking and finishing which is allowed on this forum and so much the better for it.
Over the years I've taken a lot of interest in woodworking and finishing but whatever I've done I've always enjoyed it; buying raw materials and turning these materials into something useful is always worth the effort and it's possible with a little practice to turn out an item that is better than a factory produced item for a lot less cost; the satisfaction gained though is immense and always gives me such a buzz; I'm sure you will feel exactly the same Colin when you've taken a lot of trouble and spent a lot of time to make one of your solid oak pieces of furniture?
You've obviously gone into learning proper construction techniques Colin regarding wood movement whilst working with solid wood; I noticed you had used "Bread board ends" on your delightful drawer unit but I didn't comment because many home woodworkers are unaware that these ends need to "float", you've got it right Colin by allowing movement whilst installing the wooden pegs; these pegs are made a tight fit on the outer part of the joints but as you say Colin the inner-part of the joint has slots where these pegs pass through; the slots allow for natural timber movement. Here is an interesting video showing the construction of a solid walnut table using bread boards across the ends of the top; the walnut being used responds very well to hand work cutting and planing very cleanly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Z1WQ46Dy8
This video is excellent as it demonstrates two ways of installing wooden pegs (pins). For leg to frame joints draw pegs are used; the peg hole in the tenon is slightly off-set towards the tenon shoulder so when the peg is knocked home it closes the joint very tightly. The pegs locating the bread board however allow the tenon to float; same kind of peg but two very different installations.
Veneering has both good and bad points. Good points are board materials can be used as a substrate the best of these being MDF (Medium density fibreboard);
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-density_fibreboard
MDF is very stable and available in very large sheets commonly 8' x 4' but I believe 10' x 5' can be obtained. MDF is dimensionally very stable as long as it remains dry; it is very easy to machine but tipped tooling is needed as it quickly blunts standard tooling including HSS (High speed steel); try drilling a lot of holes using a standard HSS drill bit?
As with all panels MDF will need a veneer (balancing) adding to the back face but this can be a cheaper backing veneer; if a backing veneer is not added then there is a great possibility that the newly veneered panel will distort as the veneer glue dries out.
Veneering allows beautiful patterned timbers to be used such as Burrs; Curls; these timbers used as solid wood would be most unstable and prone to weakness but as veneer the wild grain patterns can be fully exploited as shown in this Barker cabinet project. If such timbers could be used in the solid they would prove highly expensive but in veneer form they can be used in a home workshop without breaking the bank; the MDF substrate is cheap.
The bad point regarding veneering is that just mentioning veneering is enough to scare the heck out of the average woodworker; the learning curve in laying veneer is very steep because to a novice it appears everything has to be done so rapidly; I felt this most acutely when I attempted my first veneering job thinking I had to complete the job before the hide glue gelled and believe me I was near panic at the rate I worked; my first veneering project was a console radio cabinet top panel and it was a success but my nerves took a beating. However with a little practice and hopefully after reading my extensive notes it will be realized that if using hot hide glue veneering can be a very laid back process with nothing to fear even if the hide glue gels before the veneer is laid it simply does not matter so no need at all for panic.
Unless training can be obtained a novice is very much alone when it comes to veneering so the only way is to get stuck in and to make every mistake possible resulting in much frustration and steam coming from ears; I've been through it but as I'm too stupid to ever quit I eventually succeeded and since my first veneering job I've gained more confidence and experience; it might appear that I'm an expert but far from it; my veneering projects have been few and far between but I have made most of the mistakes so I'm able to share my knowledge thus far; I'm still making mistakes as demonstrated during this Barker veneering job when at times it went horribly wrong; when things go so wrong many will give up and never attempt veneering again but I would urge a novice to learn from problems and mistakes and rather than become annoyed accept all such set backs as a challenge; given Colin's excellent work as shown in his lovely solid oak drawer unit I just know Colin will take to veneering and after a few silly initial mistakes will quickly grasp the technique hopefully to move on to more complicated projects posting these in due course?
No one showed me how to veneer or French polish and I started from scratch; at that time "You Tube" or the Internet didn't cover these two subjects as they do now; there are free videos these days showing hands on and I recommend these to a novice as it is much easier watching a technique than it is describing the technique in text.
I well remember my first efforts in that it wasn't the actual hands on that caused me so many initial problems it was obtaining materials? I have many books on all aspects of woodworking and I knew what I wanted but everything proved such a struggle. I had read that a traditional French polishing rubber consists of two parts; the outer cloth and the inner wadding? What could be easier than obtaining both these after all I had lots of cloth kicking around so all I needed was the wadding; ordinary cotton wool is no good because it simply compresses into a solid mass but what was this "Skin Wadding"; I searched high and low for this wasting a lot of time; I read through phone books and Yellow Pages together with the Thompson Local but Skin Wadding evaded me; I didn't even now what it looked like and if I could actually find some of this rare material could I afford to buy it?
Eventually I phoned an upholsterer living about 8 miles away and Bron accompanied me to visit him; this guy was very helpful; he had unfortunately fallen ill but but he had a bit of Skin Wadding which he very kindly gave me to experiment with and he also explained this Skin Wadding was being phased out being replaced by man made material?
I tracked down some shellac and after what seemed like a lifetime I could start to learn French Polishing.
I am happy to pass on two suppliers of Skin Wadding; Shellac and Hide Glue these being;
http://www.restoration-materials.co.uk/w...fo.php?p=0&search=wadding
http://www.jpennyltd.co.uk/Sitemap.php
When I visit Restoration Materials in Bury I'm spoiled for choice as just about every old fashioned finishing material is stocked and I always leave much lighter in the pocket. I also buy on-line from John Penny buying my last lot of hide (Pearl) glue from them and this hide glue really is good whilst being reasonably priced.
I still haven't found a local source for veneer so resort to buying through eBay where it really does pay to spend time browsing because prices vary a great deal; I bought the Burr Walnut for this Barker through eBay and it is lovely stuff.
A novice to either French polishing or veneering has access to a great deal of information whilst reading my assorted threads; not only showing hands on each stage during a project but access to the many problems and solutions together with material suppliers; I had non of this to help me so although I ramble on for England after reading my stories a novice should be well informed as to what to expect. There are usually many ways to do the same job all I write about is what has worked for me whether it be the correct way or not; with this amount of information available is French polishing or veneering really so difficult to master? No pressure Colin but I will be most interested and very much obliged if you would add your story if you do decide to have a go at either French polishing or veneering; both these techniques are dying out so I'm doing my best to encourage others to have a go; the costs involved are quite small but the rewards immense.
I'm looking forward to our two day long summer when we have threats of hose pipe bans and standpipes allowing me to visit our garage without me getting a soaking or being wrapped up like an Eskimo; today is normal; cold; wet and dismal.
Kind regards, Col.
Thanks Colin; although this is a thread about veneering it's very interesting to wander into other aspects of woodworking and finishing which is allowed on this forum and so much the better for it.
Over the years I've taken a lot of interest in woodworking and finishing but whatever I've done I've always enjoyed it; buying raw materials and turning these materials into something useful is always worth the effort and it's possible with a little practice to turn out an item that is better than a factory produced item for a lot less cost; the satisfaction gained though is immense and always gives me such a buzz; I'm sure you will feel exactly the same Colin when you've taken a lot of trouble and spent a lot of time to make one of your solid oak pieces of furniture?
You've obviously gone into learning proper construction techniques Colin regarding wood movement whilst working with solid wood; I noticed you had used "Bread board ends" on your delightful drawer unit but I didn't comment because many home woodworkers are unaware that these ends need to "float", you've got it right Colin by allowing movement whilst installing the wooden pegs; these pegs are made a tight fit on the outer part of the joints but as you say Colin the inner-part of the joint has slots where these pegs pass through; the slots allow for natural timber movement. Here is an interesting video showing the construction of a solid walnut table using bread boards across the ends of the top; the walnut being used responds very well to hand work cutting and planing very cleanly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9Z1WQ46Dy8
This video is excellent as it demonstrates two ways of installing wooden pegs (pins). For leg to frame joints draw pegs are used; the peg hole in the tenon is slightly off-set towards the tenon shoulder so when the peg is knocked home it closes the joint very tightly. The pegs locating the bread board however allow the tenon to float; same kind of peg but two very different installations.
Veneering has both good and bad points. Good points are board materials can be used as a substrate the best of these being MDF (Medium density fibreboard);
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medium-density_fibreboard
MDF is very stable and available in very large sheets commonly 8' x 4' but I believe 10' x 5' can be obtained. MDF is dimensionally very stable as long as it remains dry; it is very easy to machine but tipped tooling is needed as it quickly blunts standard tooling including HSS (High speed steel); try drilling a lot of holes using a standard HSS drill bit?
As with all panels MDF will need a veneer (balancing) adding to the back face but this can be a cheaper backing veneer; if a backing veneer is not added then there is a great possibility that the newly veneered panel will distort as the veneer glue dries out.
Veneering allows beautiful patterned timbers to be used such as Burrs; Curls; these timbers used as solid wood would be most unstable and prone to weakness but as veneer the wild grain patterns can be fully exploited as shown in this Barker cabinet project. If such timbers could be used in the solid they would prove highly expensive but in veneer form they can be used in a home workshop without breaking the bank; the MDF substrate is cheap.
The bad point regarding veneering is that just mentioning veneering is enough to scare the heck out of the average woodworker; the learning curve in laying veneer is very steep because to a novice it appears everything has to be done so rapidly; I felt this most acutely when I attempted my first veneering job thinking I had to complete the job before the hide glue gelled and believe me I was near panic at the rate I worked; my first veneering project was a console radio cabinet top panel and it was a success but my nerves took a beating. However with a little practice and hopefully after reading my extensive notes it will be realized that if using hot hide glue veneering can be a very laid back process with nothing to fear even if the hide glue gels before the veneer is laid it simply does not matter so no need at all for panic.
Unless training can be obtained a novice is very much alone when it comes to veneering so the only way is to get stuck in and to make every mistake possible resulting in much frustration and steam coming from ears; I've been through it but as I'm too stupid to ever quit I eventually succeeded and since my first veneering job I've gained more confidence and experience; it might appear that I'm an expert but far from it; my veneering projects have been few and far between but I have made most of the mistakes so I'm able to share my knowledge thus far; I'm still making mistakes as demonstrated during this Barker veneering job when at times it went horribly wrong; when things go so wrong many will give up and never attempt veneering again but I would urge a novice to learn from problems and mistakes and rather than become annoyed accept all such set backs as a challenge; given Colin's excellent work as shown in his lovely solid oak drawer unit I just know Colin will take to veneering and after a few silly initial mistakes will quickly grasp the technique hopefully to move on to more complicated projects posting these in due course?
No one showed me how to veneer or French polish and I started from scratch; at that time "You Tube" or the Internet didn't cover these two subjects as they do now; there are free videos these days showing hands on and I recommend these to a novice as it is much easier watching a technique than it is describing the technique in text.
I well remember my first efforts in that it wasn't the actual hands on that caused me so many initial problems it was obtaining materials? I have many books on all aspects of woodworking and I knew what I wanted but everything proved such a struggle. I had read that a traditional French polishing rubber consists of two parts; the outer cloth and the inner wadding? What could be easier than obtaining both these after all I had lots of cloth kicking around so all I needed was the wadding; ordinary cotton wool is no good because it simply compresses into a solid mass but what was this "Skin Wadding"; I searched high and low for this wasting a lot of time; I read through phone books and Yellow Pages together with the Thompson Local but Skin Wadding evaded me; I didn't even now what it looked like and if I could actually find some of this rare material could I afford to buy it?
Eventually I phoned an upholsterer living about 8 miles away and Bron accompanied me to visit him; this guy was very helpful; he had unfortunately fallen ill but but he had a bit of Skin Wadding which he very kindly gave me to experiment with and he also explained this Skin Wadding was being phased out being replaced by man made material?
I tracked down some shellac and after what seemed like a lifetime I could start to learn French Polishing.
I am happy to pass on two suppliers of Skin Wadding; Shellac and Hide Glue these being;
http://www.restoration-materials.co.uk/w...fo.php?p=0&search=wadding
http://www.jpennyltd.co.uk/Sitemap.php
When I visit Restoration Materials in Bury I'm spoiled for choice as just about every old fashioned finishing material is stocked and I always leave much lighter in the pocket. I also buy on-line from John Penny buying my last lot of hide (Pearl) glue from them and this hide glue really is good whilst being reasonably priced.
I still haven't found a local source for veneer so resort to buying through eBay where it really does pay to spend time browsing because prices vary a great deal; I bought the Burr Walnut for this Barker through eBay and it is lovely stuff.
A novice to either French polishing or veneering has access to a great deal of information whilst reading my assorted threads; not only showing hands on each stage during a project but access to the many problems and solutions together with material suppliers; I had non of this to help me so although I ramble on for England after reading my stories a novice should be well informed as to what to expect. There are usually many ways to do the same job all I write about is what has worked for me whether it be the correct way or not; with this amount of information available is French polishing or veneering really so difficult to master? No pressure Colin but I will be most interested and very much obliged if you would add your story if you do decide to have a go at either French polishing or veneering; both these techniques are dying out so I'm doing my best to encourage others to have a go; the costs involved are quite small but the rewards immense.
I'm looking forward to our two day long summer when we have threats of hose pipe bans and standpipes allowing me to visit our garage without me getting a soaking or being wrapped up like an Eskimo; today is normal; cold; wet and dismal.
Kind regards, Col.
Happiness is a wreck of a cabinet to restore.
